[NFP] An idea to buff the recon class: uncapped barbarian XP

[ShallowSeas]

The recon class is cool and fun to use, but in my opinion it is pretty weak and not useful past the early game. Even if you manage to keep your scouts alive you usually don't gain much benefit from promoting them. You can use them to scout out uninhabited islands, but in truth, they aren't really any better at doing this than whatever military units you have lying around.

The recond class has to be balanced around the "ambush" promotion (+20 combat strength), but the problem is that it is very difficult to earn enough promotions to unlock "ambush." It is difficult to find find enough natural wonders and tribal villages to reach the third promotion and the double recon XP policy card generally has too high an opportunity cost.

The solution is to make it so that recon class units always get full XP when fighting barbarians. Players who use their recon units to hunt barbarians in the mid game will be rewarded with powerful and useful units in the late game.

This will also serve as a nice indirect buff to civs who have recon uniques, especially Scotland. The highlander is only worth building for the era score.

 

[Aurelesk]

I am waiting to see this line in the changelog:
• A unit getting experience points when having a Promotion available are properly added toward the next Promotion.

Even if the "Survey" policy card isn't the best, I tend to slot because I have hope. But it is frustrating to see your Scout discovers a Natural Wonder, see the +20 Exp popping over its head, then remind yourself that your Scout was just 2 Exp awat from the next Promotion, and realise that 18 Exp go to waste. Yeah!

I am not a fan of your idea: always getting XP from barbarians when the unit purpose is to discover the map seems contradictory. Even the fact that the "Survey" policy card also doubles the Exp in combat seems absurd. The Recon class Promotion's table split into Exploration (Can see through Woods and Jungle, +1 sight range) and oddly Offensive (Can move after attacking, +20 CS) while it was more Defensive in Civilization V (+5 then 10 HP/turn and +25% then +50% Defense (roughly ~5 the ~10 CS), heal while moving, withdraw on attack...).

But I understand your point: Scouts may need more source of Exp. Why not give them for finding a new continent, City-State or Civilization instead?

Maybe the problem is the "Ambush" promotion: why not get ride of it, increase the base CS of the Scout, and change the promotion table from an offensive path to a survivalist path?

 

[ShallowSeas]

I am waiting to see this line in the changelog:
• A unit getting experience points when having a Promotion available are properly added toward the next Promotion.

Even if the "Survey" policy card isn't the best, I tend to slot because I have hope. But it is frustrating to see your Scout discovers a Natural Wonder, see the +20 Exp popping over its head, then remind yourself that your Scout was just 2 Exp awat from the next Promotion, and realise that 18 Exp go to waste. Yeah!

I am not a fan of your idea: always getting XP from barbarians when the unit purpose is to discover the map seems contradictory. Even the fact that the "Survey" policy card also doubles the Exp in combat seems absurd. The Recon class Promotion's table split into Exploration (Can see through Woods and Jungle, +1 sight range) and oddly Offensive (Can move after attacking, +20 CS) while it was more Defensive in Civilization V (+5 then 10 HP/turn and +25% then +50% Defense (roughly ~5 the ~10 CS), heal while moving, withdraw on attack...).

But I understand your point: Scouts may need more source of Exp. Why not give them for finding a new continent, City-State or Civilization instead?

Maybe the problem is the "Ambush" promotion: why not get ride of it, increase the base CS of the Scout, and change the promotion table from an offensive path to a survivalist path?

It isn't contradictory, past a certain point all of the barbarians are in the unexplored areas of the map. Furthermore, I think it is thematically appropriate, since it could represent the abilties of recon class units to master irregular warfare.

Giving scouts XP based on discovering new continents, city states... etc would be ok, but past a certain point in the game you're going to be you're going to be using ships to discover most of these things leaving you facing a dilemma of either "wasting" XP or exploring with painful inefficiency. Frankly, in the mid and late game, a spare cavalry unit is just as good if not better than a scout when it comes to exploring.

I think maybe this highlights the issue with the scout in general. It is only useful for exploring in the early game. Past that point, it doesn't really have a role. Perhaps they could, as you say, just get rid of ambush and buff the combat strength from the skirmisher on up. Maybe they could also give the recon line a healing bonus in neutral and hostile territory which could both help define it's role better and represent thematically that recon troops are masters of survival tactics.

I do agree that experience should roll over properly, it is a big reason why it is so hard sometimes to get even the second promotion on a scout.

 

[The googles do nothing]

If scouts had reduced damage from ranged units they could be used to scout during an attack. That's what I do now but it's often a suicide mission.

 

[Aurelesk]

Giving scouts XP based on discovering new continents, city states... etc would be ok, but past a certain point in the game you're going to be you're going to be using ships to discover most of these things leaving you facing a dilemma of either "wasting" XP or exploring with painful inefficiency. Frankly, in the mid and late game, a spare cavalry unit is just as good if not better than a scout when it comes to exploring.

You already built the Scout, and ships can't go inland. But you got a point: if there is nothing left to discover, then it will be harder to them to train.

Civilization VI did a good job and giving them the ability to Paradrop and Priority Target to Spec Ops. I am still against giving Recon unit a bonus toward defeating barbarians past the first level (even change Survey for exploration only), but all for giving new tools to be efficient in combat.

• Let the Ranger to have 'Priority Target'.
• Give them better Melee Strength, so they could differentiate more from the Ranged unit: they will be weaker than Ranged unit for attacking purpose but more bulkier if attacked. Plus, it synergise well with the Zone of Control they have, something the Ranged unit do not, allowing to put Siege to city more easily. Or, as said by @The googles do nothing , give them some Ranged defense.
• Change 'Ambush' (+20 CS) for something else, and let the Recon units have better Combat Strength from the start. The Recon are weak because they can get better only if they got a specific promotion.

In the end, the Scout line could be a good tool for early exploration and his purpose will change for helping to conquest: getting ride of support unit, allow to stand against Ranged attack, apply Zone of Control for Siege purpose and easily mobile. Even a unique "Medic" promotion could be helpful in this repurposed role.

 

[Sostratus]

If scouts had reduced damage from ranged units they could be used to scout during an attack. That's what I do now but it's often a suicide mission.

Some people have a lot of fun using scouts to distract the city strikes while the catapults lob rocks at them.

Give them better Melee Strength, so they could differentiate more from the Ranged unit: they will be weaker than Ranged unit for attacking purpose but more bulkier if attacked. Plus, it synergise well with the Zone of Control they have, something the Ranged unit do not, allowing to put Siege to city more easily. Or, as said by @The googles do nothing , give them some Ranged defense.

If we look at the Ranger, at 60/45, and compare him to his fellow industrial friends, he is just really weak. I think having ranger/specops be a "skirmishing" unit that has 1 range but sits around 60/55 or so would give them a nice use case versus "riflemen" (who would be at 65, and don't exist yet) and field cannons, who have 60/50 but 2 range and only 2 move. So skirmisher types would be able to run in and punch, take a punch, and run out; but they couldn't really hold a line against heavier units.

That said ambush warak'aqs are the most broken garbage in the game if you can actually farm them to ambush level.

 

[AsH2]

Spec Ops Priority Target were able to sink enemy's embarked "unkillable" units - don't know if it's been fixed/changed.

 

[Galvatron]

The recon class is cool and fun to use, but in my opinion it is pretty weak and not useful past the early game. Even if you manage to keep your scouts alive you usually don't gain much benefit from promoting them. You can use them to scout out uninhabited islands, but in truth, they aren't really any better at doing this than whatever military units you have lying around.

The recond class has to be balanced around the "ambush" promotion (+20 combat strength), but the problem is that it is very difficult to earn enough promotions to unlock "ambush." It is difficult to find find enough natural wonders and tribal villages to reach the third promotion and the double recon XP policy card generally has too high an opportunity cost.

The solution is to make it so that recon class units always get full XP when fighting barbarians. Players who use their recon units to hunt barbarians in the mid game will be rewarded with powerful and useful units in the late game.

This will also serve as a nice indirect buff to civs who have recon uniques, especially Scotland. The highlander is only worth building for the era score.

The problem with recon is a couple of issues IMHO:

1. Once you've explored a region you have psychic vision of it ands there's no need to go there again unless you need to kill someone there and even then it's only if you don't have a nuke. Making scouting important past the first era would change this. You shouldn't have the ability to see that maya is building huey teocalli across the globe and they're 40% done. I doubt you should immediately know that there's coal in Antarctica without going there either.
2. The game blends reconnaissance with irregulars. I think they should be be separate units. Slingers become peltasts, then skirmishers, then riflemen, then gorillas and strong vs. Ranged, and weak to cav scouts become explorers then cartographers then... idk. Possibly tying in with an enhanced role they play.