Atwork
Immortal
I previously posted this in a different thread, but I am looking for input on my proposal specifically, and so I started this thread. Please give feedback. As I begin, let me emphasize that I think that a revamped espionage system was a good addition to the game and a long time coming. But, thank you MNF for forcing me to grapple with my real complaints about the current espionage system.
Aspects of the current espionage system are tedious. Two quick examples: (1) the mere fact that you have to constantly build the damn things incessantly from start to finish and (2) that you have to redistribute your spies after every attempted mission.
Also, the spy game is too passive so far as defending against other’s spies is concerned. The current strategy involves a combination of buildings, placing spies as sentries in cities, or scattering spies about as you deem best. In this regard, it isn’t much different than defending your territory using regular military units.
I propose that this system could be vastly improved and let me tell you how. Changes should be made that create a counter-spy v. spy war within the game. These are a few changes that would need to be implemented:
1. Espionage units should be divided between Intelligence Agents (“Agents”
and Spies. Agents thwart spies at home while spies wreak havoc in foreign lands.
2. Spies and agents should have unique abilities and roles and should have upgrades supportive of their varying roles.
3. More reflective of the combat system, many upgrades could be given to individual spies and agents. Essentially, each individual spy or agent can be customized to best fit either your need, or your style, or both.
· Possible upgrades to spies: vision upgrades, movement upgrades, upgrades that increase the chances of successful missions, or upgrades that lead to the damage caused by a spy mission to last longer, etc.
· Possible upgrades for agents: visibility, movement, increased chance of detecting spy, increased chance of detaining spy, increased likelihood of obtaining by valuable information through interrogation, increased chance of destroying a spy, better chance of detecting nationality upon detecting a spy, etc.
4. EP’s would continue to be gained by budget spending and buildings.
5. Spies and agents would accrue experience points based on the success of your spies and agents.
6. Just as great general production is boosted by success in battle, points earned from successful espionage missions and successful counter-espionage missions would go toward creating great spies.
7. Great spies could be attached to an individual spy unit and gain 20 experience points. If you were lucky, you might hold on to a spy with many upgrades that in the end game has become extremely powerful.
8. Extremely powerful spies would be so potentially menacing that they could become major concerns of many nations – like little Bin Laden’s if you will. Wars might be declared to stop the host nation from continuing with its espionage spending/efforts. These spies could deal powerful blows against rivals.
9. Great spies could also be attached to individual agents and would gain 20 exp. points, making them bona fide intelligence experts so powerful that it would be competent to stop a '911' from taking place within your borders.
10. Espionage and intelligence buildings would have distinctive purposes. Example: a building to act as barracks for spies or agents to give experience points to new units.
11. Freshly built spies without any upgrades would be invisible new agents. Subsequent upgrades would alter this. As the system goes, a veteran spy will be pretty damn hard to detect, but, on the other hand, a green spy is highly unlikely to get by a veteran agent.
12. Agents would attack spies just as any other unit attacks, but the consequence would depend on chance, the upgrades of each unit, and possible other factors including buildings, etc.
13. A successful attack from an agent against a spy could result in detaining the spy at which various options would become available to the player. Maybe the player lets the spy go to gain the good graces of your rival, maybe he interrogates to learn something about their rival, maybe he holds the spy hostage for monetary gain, or maybe he just destroys the spy and incur a diplomatic penalty to try to provoke a war. Choices!
14. Spies couldn’t attack agents, but they could evade, give false information, or simply disappear. Whether a spy gets detained would depend on chance, the agent’s abilities, the spy’s abilities, buildings, and EP’s.
15. Spies could manage to take out the security buildings that make up their rival’s security apparatus, and this would matter!
16. Espionage and intelligence gathering would be much more closely related to diplomacy and foreign policy.
17. The numbers of spies and agents would be capped. 18 useful spies for 18 civs on the board should be sufficient, hell, you could use all 18 on one civ if you wanted. 1 good agent per 3 cities should be sufficient.
18. Emphasis would be on fewer overall spy units, but more options, control, power, and strategy in utilizing the available units.
19. Just as a player feels proud of his cavalry unit that has been with him since the days of chariots, which is lead by a great general with 10 upgrades, so to would the player come to feel proud of his elite spies and agents.
20. One of the best changes in this system is that a player would potentially SEE spies in his territory. A good agent not only has a chance at detecting a spy, but also of recognizing its nationality. Ultimately, what the player could gather by detecting a spy would depend on the agent's upgrades v. the spy's upgrades in addition to buildings and budget. Having agents running around taking notes of exactly what nation is most active in his land and adjusting his foreign policy accordingly would be huge!
21. Whether a spy was detected would be a matter chance, upgrades, buildings, and EP’s for the spy’s owner. Whether an agent detected that spy would be a matter of the same factors. If an agent did detect a spy, the amount of info available would again be a matter of those same factors. If the agent moved to detain the spy, again those factors would be relevant. Upon a successful detention, the choices available to the player would again take these factors into account. It might be that a player simply has a very rudimentary espionage apparatus and can gain nothing from detaining the spy, in which case, the spy is simply destroyed or returned.
22. In this system, successful spies stay embedded. None of this returning to capital nonsense. Also, agents can't leave their own borders.
I started playing CIV in grade school, on the board game, and I have remained a CIV’er all these years. I have a circle of friends who started playing at the same time I did and we agree that a system like the one I outlined above would be a vast improvement over the current system, although the current system is clearly a step in the right direction. So, if anyone out there is likeminded and mod-savvy, then what are the chances of getting something like this off of the ground? I have heard that mods for Warlords existed that implemented some of these ideas, so if there is already mods being used that are at all similar to what I am suggesting, then please let me know. I unfortunately am not mod-savvy and school really prevents me from taking the time to learn right now. Maybe over Christmas break. I of course welcome much feedback and ideas.
Aspects of the current espionage system are tedious. Two quick examples: (1) the mere fact that you have to constantly build the damn things incessantly from start to finish and (2) that you have to redistribute your spies after every attempted mission.
Also, the spy game is too passive so far as defending against other’s spies is concerned. The current strategy involves a combination of buildings, placing spies as sentries in cities, or scattering spies about as you deem best. In this regard, it isn’t much different than defending your territory using regular military units.
I propose that this system could be vastly improved and let me tell you how. Changes should be made that create a counter-spy v. spy war within the game. These are a few changes that would need to be implemented:
1. Espionage units should be divided between Intelligence Agents (“Agents”
and Spies. Agents thwart spies at home while spies wreak havoc in foreign lands. 2. Spies and agents should have unique abilities and roles and should have upgrades supportive of their varying roles.
3. More reflective of the combat system, many upgrades could be given to individual spies and agents. Essentially, each individual spy or agent can be customized to best fit either your need, or your style, or both.
· Possible upgrades to spies: vision upgrades, movement upgrades, upgrades that increase the chances of successful missions, or upgrades that lead to the damage caused by a spy mission to last longer, etc.
· Possible upgrades for agents: visibility, movement, increased chance of detecting spy, increased chance of detaining spy, increased likelihood of obtaining by valuable information through interrogation, increased chance of destroying a spy, better chance of detecting nationality upon detecting a spy, etc.
4. EP’s would continue to be gained by budget spending and buildings.
5. Spies and agents would accrue experience points based on the success of your spies and agents.
6. Just as great general production is boosted by success in battle, points earned from successful espionage missions and successful counter-espionage missions would go toward creating great spies.
7. Great spies could be attached to an individual spy unit and gain 20 experience points. If you were lucky, you might hold on to a spy with many upgrades that in the end game has become extremely powerful.
8. Extremely powerful spies would be so potentially menacing that they could become major concerns of many nations – like little Bin Laden’s if you will. Wars might be declared to stop the host nation from continuing with its espionage spending/efforts. These spies could deal powerful blows against rivals.
9. Great spies could also be attached to individual agents and would gain 20 exp. points, making them bona fide intelligence experts so powerful that it would be competent to stop a '911' from taking place within your borders.
10. Espionage and intelligence buildings would have distinctive purposes. Example: a building to act as barracks for spies or agents to give experience points to new units.
11. Freshly built spies without any upgrades would be invisible new agents. Subsequent upgrades would alter this. As the system goes, a veteran spy will be pretty damn hard to detect, but, on the other hand, a green spy is highly unlikely to get by a veteran agent.
12. Agents would attack spies just as any other unit attacks, but the consequence would depend on chance, the upgrades of each unit, and possible other factors including buildings, etc.
13. A successful attack from an agent against a spy could result in detaining the spy at which various options would become available to the player. Maybe the player lets the spy go to gain the good graces of your rival, maybe he interrogates to learn something about their rival, maybe he holds the spy hostage for monetary gain, or maybe he just destroys the spy and incur a diplomatic penalty to try to provoke a war. Choices!
14. Spies couldn’t attack agents, but they could evade, give false information, or simply disappear. Whether a spy gets detained would depend on chance, the agent’s abilities, the spy’s abilities, buildings, and EP’s.
15. Spies could manage to take out the security buildings that make up their rival’s security apparatus, and this would matter!
16. Espionage and intelligence gathering would be much more closely related to diplomacy and foreign policy.
17. The numbers of spies and agents would be capped. 18 useful spies for 18 civs on the board should be sufficient, hell, you could use all 18 on one civ if you wanted. 1 good agent per 3 cities should be sufficient.
18. Emphasis would be on fewer overall spy units, but more options, control, power, and strategy in utilizing the available units.
19. Just as a player feels proud of his cavalry unit that has been with him since the days of chariots, which is lead by a great general with 10 upgrades, so to would the player come to feel proud of his elite spies and agents.
20. One of the best changes in this system is that a player would potentially SEE spies in his territory. A good agent not only has a chance at detecting a spy, but also of recognizing its nationality. Ultimately, what the player could gather by detecting a spy would depend on the agent's upgrades v. the spy's upgrades in addition to buildings and budget. Having agents running around taking notes of exactly what nation is most active in his land and adjusting his foreign policy accordingly would be huge!
21. Whether a spy was detected would be a matter chance, upgrades, buildings, and EP’s for the spy’s owner. Whether an agent detected that spy would be a matter of the same factors. If an agent did detect a spy, the amount of info available would again be a matter of those same factors. If the agent moved to detain the spy, again those factors would be relevant. Upon a successful detention, the choices available to the player would again take these factors into account. It might be that a player simply has a very rudimentary espionage apparatus and can gain nothing from detaining the spy, in which case, the spy is simply destroyed or returned.
22. In this system, successful spies stay embedded. None of this returning to capital nonsense. Also, agents can't leave their own borders.
I started playing CIV in grade school, on the board game, and I have remained a CIV’er all these years. I have a circle of friends who started playing at the same time I did and we agree that a system like the one I outlined above would be a vast improvement over the current system, although the current system is clearly a step in the right direction. So, if anyone out there is likeminded and mod-savvy, then what are the chances of getting something like this off of the ground? I have heard that mods for Warlords existed that implemented some of these ideas, so if there is already mods being used that are at all similar to what I am suggesting, then please let me know. I unfortunately am not mod-savvy and school really prevents me from taking the time to learn right now. Maybe over Christmas break. I of course welcome much feedback and ideas.
