An Open Letter to Ed Beach - Deep eras & variable research/production speeds in Civ 6

[HadrianLP]

Hi Civ Fanatics!

I hope this is okay as my first post. I am trying to get this out there to the different corners of the Civ community, for reasons I think the majority of people who lay eyes on it will understand and be excited about.

I just tweeted an open letter to Ed Beach regarding a simple feature many of us have been waiting to see in Civilization for a long time.

Don't want to follow the link and/or set foot on Twitter ever? Here's the text of the letter:

Hi, Ed.

The announcement of Civilization VI, and the subsequent coverage so far, has been exhilarating. Thank you for breaking the news, and for the hard work to come as your vision becomes reality.

As there is still ample time prior to release, allow me to urge you and the team to consider adding a simple feature to the game’s custom/advanced setup options in the coming months.

Many Civilization V mods have tried to work this concept or a similar one into the game, but as far as I’m aware it has never been implemented by the developers in any past release. The idea is straightforward:

Please, consider adding sliders/dropdowns that allow totally optional, separate, and more variable speeds of research and production.

If this were done, players could greatly slow research while greatly accelerating production. This would allow large numbers of turns to pass after construction of every available building in an era, during which players could still train units, build
cities, and wage wars.

Civilizations could expand, let alone exist, in each and every era for more prolonged periods than has ever been possible before. Players who want to experience deeper historical eras, to establish expansive Classical-era Empires, and to tell richer stories as their Civilizations rise and fall would finally be able to do so, to a degree they could deeply customize, and without having to use mods.

I know that you and your team have a much clearer vision of how difficult this would be to implement. My hope is that you find it a simple addition, and that the benefits far outweigh the work.

Thank you so much for reading, for your consideration, and for your dedication to furthering this beloved franchise.

Any help you can give in spreading this would be appreciated by a lot of us, but the main reason I'm sharing it here is just so you can all see it and have the chance to chime in with your thoughts. If this is something the devs do take up and run with, it'd be nice to have some extant discussion surrounding the feature in easy-to-find places.

Cheers.

-H

 

[m15a]

Personally, I think options like these should be available via an XML file rather than in the game menus. There has hopefully been some effort to balance the fixed speed options within the game (this is not always the case, but since this is a standard game option, a major imbalance in quick or marathon speed should be considered a game flaw, IMO). In contrast, I don't expect the developers to balance the game for the wide range of research and production costs that a player might want to experiment with - I think these should remain experimental options. And I think experimental options should be placed outside of the regular game menu.

 

[moysturfurmer]

System like that might get dull if not for tech branches. War Hounds branching off Animal Husbandry, Javeliners branching off Bronzeworking, that kind of thing.

Point being, let's see some tech branches in Civ. Literally everybody wants them. Anyone who says they don't is only kidding.

 

[Blkbird]

The idea is straightforward:

Please, consider adding sliders/dropdowns that allow totally optional, separate, and more variable speeds of research and production.

Obviously not as straightforward as you thought, cause even after repeated reading, I'm not sure what exactly it is that you want. You've spent so many words arguing for the thing but so few to describe it properly.

 

[Birdjaguar]

To slow the game down, one only needs to reduce the number of years per turn in any given era.
A research option could set it at normal rate (x1), faster (x1.5 or x2); or slower at x.75 or x.5.
Production could be set in the same way as research.

As I think about it, the game pace could be done just like research and production: years per turn times x.5; x.75; x1; x1.25; x1.5 etc.

In all three cases the game could allow the player to select a decimal number between .25 and 2.0 for each and customize the speed to their liking.

 

[HadrianLP]

Obviously not as straightforward as you thought, cause even after repeated reading, I'm not sure what exactly it is that you want. You've spent so many words arguing for the thing but so few to describe it properly.

All these other 300+ folks did just fine. You're the very first person to say you don't get it. Moderator Action: <snip>

Moderator Action: Please remember to be respectful towards other posters.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

As for the rest of you, thanks for the replies! Some of what you brought up was discussed in the Reddit thread I just linked to. I think one of the wins of this approach is that, since the settings are completely optional, those who find slower research / faster productions dull can use the milder settings (or avoid tweaking them at all).

I don't mind the thought of using just one era's single melee, single ranged, and single artillery unit (if that's all there is) for a little while if it means I get to experience the era, build an empire, and fight a handful of wars. What you may see as a loss of depth is simply a stretching out of the depth that's already there. As a complete game, the depth would remain without any additional tech options. At least, for me.

Just my 2 cents on that feedback, which is a valid point from many peoples' perspectives.

To slow the game down, one only needs to reduce the number of years per turn in any given era. A research option could set it at normal rate (x1), faster (x1.5 or x2); or slower at x.75 or x.5. Production could be set in the same way as research.

As I think about it, the game pace could be done just like research and production: years per turn times x.5; x.75; x1; x1.25; x1.5 etc.

In all three cases the game could allow the player to select a decimal number between .25 and 2.0 for each and customize the speed to their liking.

Exactly. You phrase it a little differently than I would, but that's where I'm going with it. Cheers.

-H

 

[KrikkitTwo]

One of the problems with the idea is that it is not Just research and production.

If you look at the xml files for different game speeds, there are over a dozen different factors that change.

Unit costs, building costs, Wonder costs, policy costs, population growth costs, great person costs, tile costs, gold/faith buy costs, etc.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That's why good programmers get paid well. They can solve complex problems of connectivity.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

That's why good programmers get paid well. They can solve complex problems of connectivity.

The problem is knowing what the player wants.

 

[historix69]

Please, consider adding sliders/dropdowns that allow totally optional, separate, and more variable speeds of research and production.

As I understand it this is just the wish to individually customize the GameSpeed via the Game Menu rather than writing a small mod. I think it should be no problem for the devs to provide the option of a custom game speed.

However Game Speed is complex.

If you slow down research, you may need to increase the number of turns.
If you reduce building costs (of settlers, science buildings, etc.), research might be accelerated due to more, bigger and better equipped cities.

(For details on GameSpeed see CIV5GameSpeeds.xml)

Spoiler :

<ID>0</ID>
			<Type>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_MARATHON</Description>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_GAMESPEED_MARATHON_HELP</Help>
			<DealDuration>90</DealDuration>
			<GrowthPercent>300</GrowthPercent>
			<TrainPercent>300</TrainPercent>
			<ConstructPercent>300</ConstructPercent>
			<CreatePercent>300</CreatePercent>
			<ResearchPercent>300</ResearchPercent>
			<GoldPercent>300</GoldPercent>
			<GoldGiftMod>67</GoldGiftMod>
			<BuildPercent>300</BuildPercent>
			<ImprovementPercent>300</ImprovementPercent>
			<GreatPeoplePercent>300</GreatPeoplePercent>
			<CulturePercent>300</CulturePercent>
			<FaithPercent>300</FaithPercent>
			<BarbPercent>400</BarbPercent>
			<FeatureProductionPercent>300</FeatureProductionPercent>
			<UnitDiscoverPercent>300</UnitDiscoverPercent>
			<UnitHurryPercent>300</UnitHurryPercent>
			<UnitTradePercent>300</UnitTradePercent>
			<GoldenAgePercent>200</GoldenAgePercent>
			<HurryPercent>100</HurryPercent>
			<InflationPercent>10</InflationPercent>
			<InflationOffset>-270</InflationOffset>
			<ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity>20</ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity>
			<VictoryDelayPercent>300</VictoryDelayPercent>
			<MinorCivElectionFreqMod>300</MinorCivElectionFreqMod>
			<OpinionDurationPercent>300</OpinionDurationPercent>
			<SpyRatePercent>100</SpyRatePercent>
			<PeaceDealDuration>30</PeaceDealDuration>
			<RelationshipDuration>150</RelationshipDuration>
			<LeaguePercent>300</LeaguePercent>
			<IconAtlas>GAMESPEED_ATLAS</IconAtlas>
			<PortraitIndex>0</PortraitIndex>

 

[Birdjaguar]

That's why good programmers get paid well. They can solve complex problems of connectivity.

The problem is knowing what the player wants.

No its not. Just write the program so players can choose the speed they want for each element. By providing lots of choices players can choose whatever they want. It's no different than deciding which civs to include. If you include as many as you can/that make sense then what the players want is not a problem. You give them lots of choices. Start with 18 and roll out more over time so in the end there is a huge variety for players to choose among. It works the same with game/tech/civic speeds. You provide choices and when X is chosen, it flows through to everything else. What specific players want doesn't matter, because variety is built in.

 

[TRoosevelt]

Please, consider adding sliders/dropdowns that allow totally optional, separate, and more variable speeds of research and production.

If this were done, players could greatly slow research while greatly accelerating production. This would allow large numbers of turns to pass after construction of every available building in an era, during which players could still train units, build
cities, and wage wars.

Civilizations could expand, let alone exist, in each and every era for more prolonged periods than has ever been possible before. Players who want to experience deeper historical eras, to establish expansive Classical-era Empires, and to tell richer stories as their Civilizations rise and fall would finally be able to do so, to a degree they could deeply customize, and without having to use mods.

You got my vote! As it is now, the game speeds so quickly through time, that you don't ever get to experience the full flavor that each age has to offer. Wars that last 100's of years, research and build times that last as long or longer. It could all be solved so simply by doing what you say: adjust the game speed slower, the build speed a lot faster, and then research speed should follow in line with the slower game speed.

It's ridiculous to think that a small building like a granary could take 100 years to build (20 turns at 5yrs/turn). The most any building should take is 15 years to build (1 World Trade Center took 11yrs), and wonders like the Pyramids are estimated to have taken only around 20 years to build, using around 20,000 workers (according to History .com). The way to correct this is to make game time = one year. GASP! Did he just say that? Yes, I did. Well, at least maybe starting in year 1000. Yeah, for me, it would be very interesting to play a 2000 turn game!

I don't want a game portraying the whole history of civilization to be over with in a weekend. If I invest my time into playing this game, I want it to be as rich of an experience as possible.

I know that you and your team have a much clearer vision of how difficult this would be to implement. My hope is that you find it a simple addition, and that the benefits far outweigh the work.

Honestly, how hard could it be? It's just making a variable out of a number that was previously hard-coded into the game, and providing a little slider button to adjust it. The amazing thing is that such a small change could satisfy so many players. I feel that they're so focused trying to come up with the next big bang, that they overlook all the different ways they could tweak the game and make it more playable, and hence, more enjoyable.

 

[historix69]

The problem is not the changing of GameSpeed Parameters, since this can be done with a simple mod for Civ5. The problem is that it will be hard to balance the game.

I used to play with a mod for Marathon (300%), where I set 150-200% for building units and constructing buildings and 400% for Research. The first techs were really slow until the National College was set up, but when a few cities were set up and I started going wide, the Research was much faster since science buildings were built faster or were cheap to buy. So I increased Research costs to 600% and added a flat science bonus to the palace to avoid research times around 50-100 turns for the first techs. Now you need to settle a complete continent to research the late game techs in a decent time.

Another problem is that if you build things faster than you can research new stuff, you run out of projects soon and since your income is low in the beginning, you can't support a huge army, so building units will ruin you unless you build and disband immediately. Founding new cities in the beginning is difficult since you lack the tech to develop luxuries and so you quickly exhaust your happiness.

So to avoid these problems, you would need to individually adjust the research costs of the first era, which means that you play the first era more like on standard or epic speed ... with the medieval age hundreds of turns away.

The coding for a Civ5 mod would look like this :

<GameData>
  <!-- TODO: Insert table creation example here. -->
 
  <!-- TODO: Insert table data example here.-->
  
  <!-- Enter your Game Data here. -->
	
	<GameSpeeds>
		
		<!-- City Growth : Food -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set GrowthPercent="300"/>			
		</Update>

		<!-- Production Cost : Units : 300 -> 200 -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set TrainPercent="200"/>
		</Update>

		<!-- Production Cost : Buildings : 300 -> 200 -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set ConstructPercent="200"/>
		</Update>

		<!-- Production Cost : Projects ??? -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set CreatePercent="300"/>
		</Update>

		<!-- Technology Cost = Research Speed : 300 -> 600 -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set ResearchPercent="600"/>
		</Update>

		<!-- Worker Speed : 300 --> 200 --> 
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set BuildPercent="200"/>
		</Update>

		<!-- Forest Production Points -->
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set FeatureProductionPercent="300"/>
		</Update>
		
		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set CulturePercent="300"/>
		</Update>

		<Update>
			<Where Type="GAMESPEED_MARATHON"/>
			<Set FaithPercent="300"/>
		</Update>
		
	</GameSpeeds>
	
	
</GameData>