Analysis: The Opening Game Unraveled

[Chandrasekhar]

I've considered this problem quite a bit myself, QES. But keep in mind that, while unhealthiness is a soft limit, it's still a pretty powerful one. Remember that issue you had with 19 flood plains or somesuch? Needing 3 food per population is a real handicap.

 

[QES]

I've considered this problem quite a bit myself, QES. But keep in mind that, while unhealthiness is a soft limit, it's still a pretty powerful one. Remember that issue you had with 19 flood plains or somesuch? Needing 3 food per population is a real handicap.

That was an issue with floodplains in particular, not unhealthiness as a concept, still i see your point. All im saying is that with the exception of that one incident, unhealthiness is more of a speed bump to my growth, unhappiness is a firm brick wall.

And while that is perhaps how it should be, im thinking that occasionally i should have to deal with unhealthiness issues more than unhappiness issues. As it is, one CAN ignore unhealtiness if they have well enough happiness. Unhealthiness issues often "sort themselves out". Or all you have to do is "wait" for things to work out (build the right building).

I dont know, all im saying is it'd be nice for there to be situations of the reversed problem.
-Qes

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

We've been playing some multiplayer with the Ljosalfar, and I have to admit that the slower workers make them pretty close to the other Civs in terms of production and R&D. I guess a lot of this is because cottages take an extra worker turn or two (especially on flood plains) to build. This means that the Ljosalfar player is forced to either (a) not build many cottages, or (b) use some of their ill-gotten hammers to make more workers. You ought to give the new elves a spin, Unser, you might come to agree with me on this point.

I'll be happy to do that very thing ... once I have played every FfH civ at least once. And after I play the Malakim again with the new desert rules. Then I'll take Ljosalfar for a spin again. By that time the vesion number will be .5-something, probably.

I very much support the appraoch taken so far. Changing Ljosalfar Worker efficiency to 80 is an example of how one small early change can result in
major differences later. How could I not support such an approach? It operates on the same principle I advocate in the study. If it turns out that more fine-tuning is needed, I'm sure that will come up and be addressed long before version 5-something comes out.

However, I think the point where we can agree is the fact that ancient forests, when added to this strategy, break the Ljosalfar cleanly. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if Bloom didn't come so early, but I'm really not even sure of that. In the multiplayer game where I was the Ljosalfar and founded Leaves, I found that the +1 +1 was enough of a bonus that the extra worker turns weren't as much of a handicap. Further, Guardian of Nature meant that I had a happicap of 17-20 in all my cities. I was well on my way to getting to those high populations, with nothing but cottages, as the extra from ancient forests makes farms unnecessary. I was just about to get priests of leaves, and an ancient forests coverred empire was just a few turns away. During this whole game, I retained a large enough military that nothing short of a dogpile would have unseated me from my position.

Again, I should raise the point that I believe that the synergy between Leaves and Ljosalfar should exist. However, it shouldn't be nearly so powerful as it is now. Substituting the +1 with +1 (for the Ljosalfar only) from ancient forests would certainly keep the synergy alive, while not being so overpowering. What do you think about that?

I do think that this remains a valid point, and for my money, a reasnable suggestion. My Bannor game (and earlier games) demonstrates the power of w/o Farms + w/o Mines + high happycaps. It's very basic, unsexy, but powerful. So I agree you want to keep Leaves as-is for any realm but Ljosalfar. As for Ljosalfar, my opinion/guestimate is that your points here are largely correct. Changing that extra food to an extra commerce, for Ljo only, seems like a reasonable, limited change.

My guess is that some more changes will still happen with Ljo. I'm guessing those changes will likely be in the game before that version 0.5-something arrives. But as for the exact mechanisms changed ... I'll let the details come from the Team and the community. I think (or at least hope) Common Wisdom now agrees the Ljosalfar economy runs hot. That was the basic goal. I don't care overly much exactly how the hot economy realms are fit in with the not-so-hot economy realms, just so they do.