Ancestral Hall Discussion Thread - follow up to Ancient and Classical buildings Elimination Thread

[Noble Zarkon]

Given the popularity of the Ancestral Hall in the Ancient and Classical buildings Elimination Thread I thought the discussions around it were worthy of a thread of their own.

If you build Ancestral Hall late you are playing it wrong. Normally my 4th city can benefit from Ancestral Hall. all the way to my 18th city. It's not just that one builder, but you can use that builder to instantly chop a rainforest to accelerate monument and bring population to 3 (having 3 population instead of 1, allows you to settle some spaces where loyalty pressure is like -10). Even many people who upvoted AH are still not having the full power of it.

I think comments like this reflect those who consider it as powerful as it's ranking suggests. The boost to building Settlers is great but I think the real power is the builder which lets these new cities contribute to your Empire very quickly. However I find it tricky - by the time I'm ready to build it I've either done settling and am ready for a tall game or I'm building an army to expand by taking other people's cities!

What's the secret to building it, how do you prioritise it along with everything else that is needed? How do you work the timing? Are you playing on large/huge maps where there's room to expand - all thoughts welcome!

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Given the popularity of the Ancestral Hall in the Ancient and Classical buildings Elimination Thread I thought the discussions around it were worthy of a thread of their own.


I think comments like this reflect those who consider it as powerful as it's ranking suggests. The boost to building Settlers is great but I think the real power is the builder which lets these new cities contribute to your Empire very quickly. However I find it tricky - by the time I'm ready to build it I've either done settling and am ready for a tall game or I'm building an army to expand by taking other people's cities!

What's the secret to building it, how do you prioritise it along with everything else that is needed? How do you work the timing? Are you playing on large/huge maps where there's room to expand - all thoughts welcome!

Yeah, I find it really expensive to try to build it at the time it would be most useful . . . then again I've never claimed to be very good at this game. Do people chop it? If so, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of using magnus to chop settlers? Don't get me wrong I still think it's good, I just have a harder time fitting it in than I did when it first appeared.

 

[hhhhhh]

Oh hey. Thanks for quoting me.

Here's how I do it. Let's say the goal is a speedy SV. (for domination games you certainly don't build AH at all.)

• Plan 2nd city with Gov. Plaza placement in mind. The ideal placement is one with lots of chops. Preferably 8 chops (rainforests count as 0.5 chops) within the 2nd ring.
• Gov. Plaza should be the first district of the 2nd city. (You have time to build a monument before you unlock GP.)
• 150 production for AH is quite expensive, so you need to Magnus-chop it. Sometimes even 2 chops.
• After AH is ready you can change policies, slot in Colonization. (+50% to settlers, thus in the city with AH, you will have +100% production to settlers)
• Chop settlers. The production boost you get will be insane...

Here's a breakdown of the settler math. Usually at this point (T60-70) you will have 3 cities including capital. The 3rd settler you build will be 140 production. So chop one wood and you get it. (if you have 9-10 civic, a chop is 70-ish, so after +100% it's 140). Chop another and spend 1-2 turn, another settler. This speed is crazy. If you know how to do it, within 10 turns, you will be able to churn out the settler that cost 230, 260 or even 290 productions (290 is a bit extreme). That's 4-5 settlers, which allow you to expand greatly. (If you play against human players who don't do this, there will be a short period they have more cities than you, say 4-5 vs. 3 of yours. But you can quickly get to 7-8 cities.)

After that you can do what I mentioned -- use that free builder to instantly chop a rainforest to accelerate monument and bring population to 3 (having 3 population instead of 1, allows you to settle some spaces where loyalty pressure is like -10). Bring population to 3 needs 39 food on standard speed. A rainforest will almost do it for you. If you don't have a rainforest then rice, wheat, corn can help (but they don't give any production towards monument). BTW if you play Korea it's kinda common to chop a Seowon. You can do the same to any civ with a UD (except Brazil, maybe).

TBH I think the "chopping a rainforest" part is just an icing on the cake. It's the carefully chosen GP location and the wave of settlers that benefits you most.

Edit: Map size doesn't matter that much as long as it's not duel. If you settle densely even on small map you can settle quite a lot of cities unless you choose not to do so.

 

[greenOak]

Obviously AH is better on maps with more room to expand. Map size has very little to do with this - its all about map script. Stuff like pangea and continents offers little room to expand where as something like lakes usually gives you more room than you'll ever need.

As for timing, I generally get poli phi around t55, and ancestral hall within ten turns of that. I will put one or two chops into completing AH if necessary.

Also, I saw someone in the other thread mention that taking cities is more efficient than settling them, and I disagree. If there's space to settle, its usually more efficient to peacefully settle. Conquest is what you do if you don't have anymore space left. I've been watching a lot of fast SV (t150-t160ish, no modes, lakes) runs from a Chinese player and warmongering isn't a big part of his strategy. Even when he goes for a more aggressive game (Babylon being an example) he focuses more on pillaging than taking cities.

 

[Kwami]

I've been watching a lot of fast SV (t150-t160ish, no modes, lakes) runs from a Chinese player and warmongering isn't a big part of his strategy. Even when he goes for a more aggressive game (Babylon being an example) he focuses more on pillaging than taking cities.

Eh... a lot of the more popular Chinese players replay the same maps countless times to figure out how to optimize the random numbers so that they always get the right tribal village rewards, etc. Is this guy like that?

Honestly, t150-160 is kind of nuts. Very few players can pull that off regularly, or ever.

 

[newbie2]

As for timing, I generally get poli phi around t55, and ancestral hall within ten turns of that. I will put one or two chops into completing AH if necessary.

.

So stupid question, how do you reliably get Pol P around t55? go scout-settler-monument?
I tend to go builder for my 3rd, because at that time you can actually work the tile and with the boost for craftmanship I get a small army (I tend to play with Barbarian mode cause I like the extra city states)

 

[hhhhhh]

Eh... a lot of the more popular Chinese players replay the same maps countless times to figure out how to optimize the random numbers so that they always get the right tribal village rewards, etc. Is this guy like that?

Honestly, t150-160 is kind of nuts. Very few players can pull that off regularly, or ever.

Nah. I'm Chinese and I follow some Chinese Civ streamers. I think T160-ish is kinda regular, some people even do that on streaming, on a newly generated map. The record is like T119, those are planned and S/L'd (one should announce this when claiming a record if you did so). I can't do that. My best run is a game where I got to industrialization on T95 so it should be doable to finish the game on T145. But those are extremely lucky ones for me and I didn't finish it (end games are boring, you know).

But these days after all the balance changes the game is getting slightly harder. So if you see a claim of T150 win that happened 6 months ago then read those as T165.

I've been watching a lot of fast SV (t150-t160ish, no modes, lakes) runs from a Chinese player and warmongering isn't a big part of his strategy.

When Chinese do SV speed run record it's usually forced by the rule to be a peaceful one. The benefit of war is just too huge (e.g. pillaging). If you do a SV with warmongering then it shouldn't be counted as a record (for the Chinese community).

 

[UWHabs]

I don't think I give enough credit to those early governor titles as I'm sure I should. Thinking about it, if a governor title is giving me one of those first promotions on Pingala, my capital is probably around size 5 or 6, so that governor title alone is giving me +6 science or +6 culture, which is way more valuable than, say, a single library, probably similar to a +4ish campus (give or take some great scientist points).

But yeah, I think I need to plan a "chop city" more often, where its only purpose is to basically chop out that early infrastructure, and then I'll worry about it later once it's all chopped out. Although it always depends on the maps - sometimes my capital is just so strong that it feels silly to do anything in my other cities when it can be pumping out a new settler every 5-6 turns.

 

[greenOak]

Eh... a lot of the more popular Chinese players replay the same maps countless times to figure out how to optimize the random numbers so that they always get the right tribal village rewards, etc. Is this guy like that?

Honestly, t150-160 is kind of nuts. Very few players can pull that off regularly, or ever.

Just echoing what hhhhhh said, but the games I'm referencing are on unknown maps with the odd reload to fix silly errors like mis-clicks. They're just really good at civ 6. There's a number of games that are save scummed to the max and they result in freakishly fast wins (I remember a t116 China game and a t109 Babylon game).

But yeah, I think I need to plan a "chop city" more often, where its only purpose is to basically chop out that early infrastructure, and then I'll worry about it later once it's all chopped out. Although it always depends on the maps - sometimes my capital is just so strong that it feels silly to do anything in my other cities when it can be pumping out a new settler every 5-6 turns.

I usually put the government plaza in the city with the most chops to get the most out of post ancestral hall settler chopping.

Also, here's a video of normul8or explaining the basic strategy. He gets to political philosophy abnormally quickly in this video, but it really doesn't change anything about the strat.

So stupid question, how do you reliably get Pol P around t55? go scout-settler-monument?
I tend to go builder for my 3rd, because at that time you can actually work the tile and with the boost for craftmanship I get a small army (I tend to play with Barbarian mode cause I like the extra city states)

Build order is usually double scout -> double settler -> monument or scout -> slinger -> double settler -> monument. I usually buy the first builder. The 2nd and 3rd cities go monument -> builder. I'll build/buy a couple slingers if needed.

I usually take Pingala and connoisseur as my first two promotions which definitely helps but I've seen plenty of people get t55 pp with Amani or Magnus first.

Culture should be prioritised over everything except maybe production in this stage of the game. For example, even in a science game, I will send envoys to cultural city states before scientific city states.

 

[newbie2]

Build order is usually double scout -> double settler -> monument or scout -> slinger -> double settler -> monument. I usually buy the first builder. The 2nd and 3rd cities go monument -> builder. I'll build/buy a couple slingers if needed.

I usually take Pingala and connoisseur as my first two promotions which definitely helps but I've seen plenty of people get t55 pp with Amani or Magnus first.

Culture should be prioritised over everything except maybe production in this stage of the game. For example, even in a science game, I will send envoys to cultural city states before scientific city states.

Where is the district for state workforce then? (I only play science or cultural games, so a early holy site or campus is what i also build)

 

[Pietato]

When Chinese do SV speed run record it's usually forced by the rule to be a peaceful one. The benefit of war is just too huge (e.g. pillaging). If you do a SV with warmongering then it shouldn't be counted as a record (for the Chinese community).

Do they ever found a religion? I never bother.

 

[Francel]

This is the first elimination thread I can remember with results that make no sense to me.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I usually don't chop the Ancestral Hall in because it feels like an exploit (i always start with Provisions Magnus in my capital, which is where I always build the GP => AC myself), but once I finish it, around T100 usually, it's time to slot in the Colonization card and just alternate Settler => District/Building => Settler => District/Building => Settler; etc for the next 150 turns. I go Monument => Walls => Comm Hub => Market => Trader in each newly settled city and use internal routes for roads/growth/prod until Wisselbanken (then it's allied trade all the way)

That order has always worked for me :shrug:

 

[greenOak]

Where is the district for state workforce then? (I only play science or cultural games, so a early holy site or campus is what i also build)

I often don't boost state workforce. If I'm going for a religion, I'll build a holy site after my first settler. I might do the holy site before the monument in my second city as well. If I'm playing a civ with an early unique district I'll find time to do that district after the second settler is out.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Build order is usually double scout -> double settler -> monument or scout -> slinger -> double settler -> monument.

Wow - I assume you are playing without Barbs then??

 

[greenOak]

Wow - I assume you are playing without Barbs then?? Also, as has been said, where is the district for the boost for state workforce then?

I have barbs on in all my games. If I get barbs actually spawning units I'll interrupt that build order and get a slinger or two and upgrade them. Two archers can usually fend off any barbarian attacks until they get swords. However, as long as they don't spot your city, your initial warrior can deal with all the barb encampments. I've also gotten good at blocking barb scouts from seeing my cities as well as funneling them away from their camps. Finally, barbs can't raze your capital so if you get swarmed by barbs super early you're often better off just letting them suicide themselves against your city while you continue with your normal plan.

As mentioned, I often don't boost state workforce - not boosting it only adds 3-4 turns.

 

[Deadly Dog]

As someone who chops reluctantly (just an aesthetic, and I'm not rigid about it), it's nice to see these detailed chop strategies, always good to keep in mind.

AH is still great without chopping, but you either need a highly productive city for it or you need to supplement it with a monumentality GA. In non-religious games I like to find ways of using maybe a Pantheon to boost food/production in my GP city, which is the Capital or 2nd city usually.

Funny the elimination thread got me trying out the Audience Chamber in my last few games, deliberately keeping myself to 8 cities or so. I didn't notice the absence of the free builder so much over the course of 4-5 cities, but the production bonus for those last settlers was missed.

 

[Linklite]

Nah. I'm Chinese and I follow some Chinese Civ streamers. I think T160-ish is kinda regular, some people even do that on streaming, on a newly generated map. The record is like T119, those are planned and S/L'd (one should announce this when claiming a record if you did so). I can't do that. My best run is a game where I got to industrialization on T95 so it should be doable to finish the game on T145. But those are extremely lucky ones for me and I didn't finish it (end games are boring, you know).

But these days after all the balance changes the game is getting slightly harder. So if you see a claim of T150 win that happened 6 months ago then read those as T165.

What does S/L'd mean?

 

[Vizurok]

What does S/L'd mean?

Save and Load, I would presume?

 

[Mount Suribachi]

What does S/L'd mean?

Save/Load I guess?

As one of the AH pimps I feel I should contribute here as well to say it remains relevant past that initial expansion phase, and indeed can become more powerful.

Once you get the Serfdom policy card with its +2 builder charges, it's fantastic to get a free 5 charge builder in every new city. If you've managed to snag the Pyramids (harder now I know) you get a free 6 charge builder in every city. This is incredible for getting a new city going.

If you get a Monumentality GA you can spam settlers with faith and not have to spend as much on builders (IIRC Settler are about 3x the faith cost of a Builder) and save your faith for more settlers, or something else. Again, plug in Serfdom for more winning.

My personal favourite is a Hic Sunt Dracones GA. Each city starts with 3 pop (on a foreign continent) and you also get an instant 5 or 6 charge builder. Within 10 turns, with chops/harvests and improvements, your single settler is now a 5 or 6 pop city with it's first district built (I usually build a Harbour or Commercial District for the trade route) and several tiles improved. Congrats you now have a fully operational city that you're not waiting 10 turns just to get it's first builder.

It's also powerful through the game when you're settling in random spots as you're revealing strategic resources that you may lack. Sure, you could spend gold to buy yourself a builder, but why not get a free builder and use that gold to buy buildings for your fledgling city instead? And again, you don't just have a crappy 1 pop city that you've settled just for the coal or whatever, you can have a much better developed city, much quicker.