And now, the Protective Trait

[noto]

Has anyone ever been able to figure out how to get any use of PRO other than a drill promotion? I disagree with people who say that the AI just comes in your land and pillages and never attacks your cities. Actually, if your military is weak enough, the AI will behave somewhat like a human and beeline to your city and try to take it. So then your protective trait would come in handy, right? Well...basically what this means is that if you build a military strong enough to defend yourself, the AI will rape and pillage the country-side. If you don't build a strong military, your cities will get taken (protective or not). It's a bit of a catch-22. Not only that, but once seige weapons join the game, the protective trait becomes all but obsolete. Yes, drill promotions reduce collateral damage, but that just means Monty or Shaka need to bring a few more catapults. It's stuff like this that has me scratching my head...what were the guys at Firaxis thinking?? I also play Warcraft 3 and for those of you who play it as well you know that Blizzard has spent thousands of hours carefully and meticulously balancing the game with dozens of patches. I know Civ isn't really played professionally or competitively, so it's a bit different...but even if it's lower stakes, the fact that a trait is so pathetically underpowered can make the game un-fun. For example, the HRE have a good UU and great UB and they can grab a religion, which makes me want to play them sometimes...but they get imperialistic and protective...2 traits that make them very boring to play

 

[CivCorpse]

They have a GREAT UU and one of the most powerful UB's in the game...I think that is why they have less powerful traits. Try keeping a stack of flanking2 horse archers in your home territory. If a horse archer attacks and survives it damages every single catapult in the stack. I did a test in world builder with 7 spearmen defending a stack of 20 catapults. I then attacked with 7 HA's with flanking 2. I didn't kill a single spearman but I destroyed ALL 20 catapults.
Protective also gives cheap walls and castles. You can expand quickly because of the Rathaus and you don't need as many archers to defend your newly conquered cities. CG2 archers with drill1 are a beast to kill before catapults. And why are you letting them sit next to your cities long enough to bombard your defenses to zero AND then attack with the cats? Try keeping a brarrage cat or two in your cities to soften up the attackers.

Or if you really really want to play the HRE but want a great leader traits too, try the unrestricted leaders. Or play the game a little longer and learn how to use the traits you have. And the Ai doesn't take promotions into account for terms of evaluating power. All shaka/monty know is that you have 4 longbows. What they don't take into account is your great general in your military city (you got one because you imperialistic. That means those 4 longbows are CG3 with drill1.) Damage some of those catapults with HA's and the attack stack with a cat or two and you keep your city.
Secondly, when you build your SoD of landshechts, include some drill2 cover longbows. They will protect them from crossbows while you wipe the enemy off the face of the earth.
I actually like the protective trait. Especially with the chinese or the native americans. But my favorite is tokogawa. Once he gets to gunpowder units he gets CG1/drill1/combat1 promotions for all gunpowder units.
Your problem isn't the protective trait, it's letting them get big stacks next to your cities in the first place.

 

[Gliese 581]

Your problem isn't the protective trait, it's letting them get big stacks next to your cities in the first place.

Which the protective trait unlike all the others does absolutely nothing to alleviate until gunpowder, when your units get a free drill 1..

 

[Joxer]

Well...basically what this means is that if you build a military strong enough to defend yourself, the AI will rape and pillage the country-side. If you don't build a strong military, your cities will get taken (protective or not).

I fail to see why your saying protective is not worth anything if this happens no matter what traits your leader has. If it becomes hard to leverage the free promotions for defending, use them on the offensive. Your achers already start with drill which can easily get them to drill II or III fighting barbs.

 

[r_rolo1]

Has anyone ever been able to figure out how to get any use of PRO other than a drill promotion? I disagree with people who say that the AI just comes in your land and pillages and never attacks your cities. Actually, if your military is weak enough, the AI will behave somewhat like a human and beeline to your city and try to take it. So then your protective trait would come in handy, right? Well...basically what this means is that if you build a military strong enough to defend yourself, the AI will rape and pillage the country-side. If you don't build a strong military, your cities will get taken (protective or not). It's a bit of a catch-22. Not only that, but once seige weapons join the game, the protective trait becomes all but obsolete. Yes, drill promotions reduce collateral damage, but that just means Monty or Shaka need to bring a few more catapults.

Try to use forts in choke points or in assorted places to break the advance of the AI stacks... Pro shines in those situations, where you need to make good use of few troops ( AGG AI games are good for that ). Pro allows you to use fewer troops in defence and to use the hammers in a SoD

 

[madscientist]

While I think the Protective is the least useful trait, it does have it's uses and comes generally with powerful civcs. The UU also tends to stack with quite a few of them.

Let's take the Protective leaders.

Charlemange: Enough said in teh above posts.

Mao and Qin: The UU starts with CG I and Drill I plus the extra first strikes and collateral damage. Pretty awesome units, even later in the early ginpowder era. The UB allows significant culture pressure while having the border cities with extra protection form archery/gunpowder units.

Churchhill: Protective Redcoats with a charismatic leader? Absolutley awesome!!!! Easy to get them very highly promoted, and have the best infantry untis in the game once upgraded.

Gilgamesh: Culture and protective. He expands veryfast and can defeat any early attacks with the UU and protective archers/longbow especially if on a hill. He also has the fast Ziggerat, so he can expand quickly, and keep his empire with rock solid city defense.

Wang: The ultimate turtle techer for a space victory. Only UB that increases beakers besides the late Russian Research Institute. The UU is severly nerfed in BTS but can still knock dow an AI assault. He can do well with a few, well protected cities until he has a big tech lead.

Saladin: A rather tough nut althoug the UU allows you camel archers without the horse resource. No way to sugar coat him, he was stronger being Philosophical and SPiritual.

Tokugawa: Well, any japanese gunpowder unit is tough from him. By the time giunpoder arrives you have usually 2 free promotions out of quite a few cities. Each grenader/rifle/musket starts with CGI, Drill I, Combat I and can quickly get combat II and pinch. Very powerful units to take a city, yet can defense them very well without any additional promotion. Also early archery/melee units can be upgraded giving Toku a very varied arsonal in mid game.

Somewhere I think I am missing someone, but it's irrelevant. Besides Saladin all protective leaders have some really good synergy with they're other trait , UU or UB.

 

[Sjaramei]

Protective is horrible, only use for it is the drill/gunpowder thingie (woopido )
The main use for protective is pissing you off when you fight AI's with it.

And as said, if you are defending in a city, either something else is wrong or you have prepared to counter the stack from there. (castle etc inside and lots of units to counterattack with) And protective doesn't matter that much then. (mixed stack)

 

[oyzar]

m u l t i p l a y e r

 

[madscientist]

Protective is horrible, only use for it is the drill/gunpowder thingie (woopido )
The main use for protective is pissing you off when you fight AI's with it.

And as said, if you are defending in a city, either something else is wrong or you have prepared to counter the stack from there. (castle etc inside and lots of units to counterattack with) And protective doesn't matter that much then. (mixed stack)

I agree protective is the weekest trait (I will not say horrible, it helps somewhat) but then again there are several AIs I couldn't play as if I ignored it. So why complain and just use what we have. Attacking an AI city and dropping a CG III drill I longbow in there to counter and attack works well. Fast walls and castles are a plus.

 

[Landmonitor]

I like the protective trait.

 

[Ad Hoc]

madscientist forgot the best protective leader.... sitting bull

Have you seen crossbowmen and longbowmen built with four promotions which is what you get with totem pole/barracks and protective. then if you're in vassalage & theocracy you have five proms to a built unit

 

[madscientist]

madscientist forgot the best protective leader.... sitting bull

Have you seen crossbowmen and longbowmen built with four promotions which is what you get with totem pole/barracks and protective. then if you're in vassalage & theocracy you have five proms to a built unit

Doh!!!!!!!

Of course, the ultimate Turtle (makes Wang look like Catherine)

Sitting Bull: UB with +3 XP available with mysticism. The only leader that can get 3 promotion off theocrac/vassalage/barrack beside the Mongolian GER. native American Longbows actually make very decent cityraiders, Immune to first strike, Drill I, and three promotions (combat I, II, cover). While I thought the UU was week, I also realize that it is the ONLY early unit that stands head to head with PRATS. Paired with one of the top three traits, Philosophical.

 

[CivCorpse]

Or babylons bowmen. They start with a big bonus vs melee units, add cg1, even whipped bowmen in a new city with a barracks are tough to beat. Put them behind a wall and they do nicely. I recently played a game as babylon and had Augustus Caeser as a neighbor. CG1 bowman behind walls are brutal. 3+(CG25%+citydefenseunitability50%+vsmelee50%+fortify25%+walls50%)=9strength....I survived vs Prats. And didn't need to suicide a bunch of axemen to weaken his stacks. I know he isn't protective, but I was pointing out he is a great counter for prats besides dog soldiers. And his axemen can get shock with just a barracks.
The dog soldier is good against unpromoted prats. but give each one combat1 plus shock and prats are 8.8 vs 8.4 dogsoldiers. Each additional promotion just makes it worse since they are figured on the units base strength. So basically Prats are still the most overpowered unit in the game. Whenever I see those pretty purple borders I beeline for construction and pray for ivory.

 

[madscientist]

Or babylons bowmen. They start with a big bonus vs melee units, add cg1, even whipped bowmen in a new city without a barracks are tough to beat. Put them behind a wall and they do nicely. I recently played a game as babylon and had Augustus Caeser as a neighbor. CG2 bowman behind walls are brutal. 3+(CG25%+citydefenseunitability50%+vsmelee50%+fortify25%+walls50%)=9strength....I survived vs Prats. And didn't need to suicide a bunch of axemen to weaken his stacks. I know he isn't protective, but I was pointing out he is a great counter for prats besides dog soldiers. And his axemen can get shock with just a barracks.
The dog soldier is good against unpromoted prats. but give each one combat1 plus shock and prats are 8.8 vs 8.4 dogsoldiers. Each additional promotion just makes it worse since they are figured on the units base strength. So basically Prats are still the most overpowered unit in the game. Whenever I see those pretty purple borders I beeline for construction and pray for ivory.

That's mixed leaders and traits though.

Hammarabi of the Babylonians is agressive and organized. Not protective.

 

[Willburn]

Protective trait rocks for getting gold overflow from walls. (Especially with stone) Time so you chop and slave the turn before wall finishes and watch the gold FLOW

 

[CivCorpse]

That's mixed leaders and traits though.

Hammarabi of the Babylonians is agressive and organized. Not protective.

The numbers I posted are for CG1 not CG2. Which you can get from a barracks. In the game I referred to I used barracks to produce CG1 bowmanwhich behind walls and fortified for 5 turns are strength9. At CG2 they would be strength 9.6. If the Prat has CR2 then that cancels out both CG promotions which leaves the bowman at 8.2 strength with a first strike from unit ability. Still stronger than a prat.

 

[CivCorpse]

I agree protective is the weekest trait (I will not say horrible, it helps somewhat) but then again there are several AIs I couldn't play as if I ignored it. So why complain and just use what we have. Attacking an AI city and dropping a CG III drill I longbow in there to counter and attack works well. Fast walls and castles are a plus.

Or two units, a CG3 dill1 longbow and a CG3 drill1 crossbow. CG3 crossbows butcher even CR3 macemen. I like tokogawa alot. He can defend a city quite easily with 3 units. a CG3/drill1 longbow, a CG3/drill1 crossbow and a combat2/formation pike. All behind cheap walls. Takes a lot of units to take the city unless they bring lots of cats. Until muskets roll along. A CG3/drill1 combat1 musketman fortified for 5 turns is just sick sick sick. Basically a strength 18 unit with a 1st strike. That is giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt for removing defenses from walls and castles.

 

[madscientist]

The numbers I posted are for CG1 not CG2. Which you can get from a barracks. In the game I referred to I used barracks to produce CG1 bowmanwhich behind walls and fortified for 5 turns are strength9. At CG2 they would be strength 9.6. If the Prat has CR2 then that cancels out both CG promotions which leaves the bowman at 8.2 strength with a first strike from unit ability. Still stronger than a prat.

OK, Gotcha about hammarabi. I should have read the entire post more closely.

Yoe are right about combat promoted dog soldies versus combat 1 Prats, but dogs are alot cheaper.

Numidian cavalry also stands well against Prats but need the shock promotion.

And the counter to the Babylonian Bowman is the Persian Immortal, historically interesting.

 

[absimiliard]

I second Wilburn's point.

Chopped and slaved walls can yield good gold returns, doubly so with stone. Enough to run your econ at 100% science for a bit if you do it right, and you can do it once per city if you have the forests....

-abs

 

[CivCorpse]

For the OP, I decided to play a game as HRE just to see how things go. Well Ghandi was pretty close and built a double holy city...I took him out easily. He only had two cities on plains. Ghengis is to my south on a spot I really wanted, so I attacked him then made peace as soon as I got a GG. I settled the GG and pumped out One shock axe, one combat2 spear and 2 CG2 drill1 archers per city for defense. I researched construction while I did this. Next I built a bunch of cats while I tech IW,MC and machinery. Once I had machinery I teched engineering while I built drill2 or drill3 xbows and more cats. Once I had engineering I built a bunch of landscechts while I tech beauracracy. Dropped the science slider to zero for cash to upgrade my5 surviving CR# axemen and built about 4-5 cr2 maces.....then I attacked. I moved into his territory heading for the capital....he attacked the city i took in the war before. He threw a pile of troops at it. I had 2 landschects and 2 cg3archers in there. He must have wasted 1/2 the troops in his empire. I popped 2gg that war and we slugged it out for a bit. I I got delayed because he vassalized to my competitor Justinian. and by the time I got his capital...he had THREE settled GG's from his wars with me and Washington. The city has 8hills and the rest is pretty much riverside grasslands. I plan to farm and mine forever. After my last war I have six GG's settled there, heroic epic, west point and a military academy. Between the Great Wall and my privateers I got a GG, then Justanian attacked in force. I had lowly CG3/drill muskets in my cities against Grenadiers and didn't lose a single city. Once again he sent wave after wave. I pumped out level5 cavalry every third turn and got three GG's that war......I wouldn't have done so well if it wasn't for the protective trait giving me uber defenders and the Imperialistic trait giving me lots of GG's. I am currently teching combustion enroute to industrialism. Louis and washington are my vassals without firing a shot at them. And I am building the pentagon. with one more GG settled,vassalage and theocracy...I will be producing level six tanks right out the gate. Can you say drill2 CR3? Or a couple barrage3 CR2 tanks for the first hit?
Played properly protective and imperialistic are ok traits. Maybe not the strongest but not worthless by any means. But if anyone attacks me they have to deal with these

which come from here