Angkor Wat great wonder!!!

[Dnomal]

I was playing a warlords game the other day, playing as Peter and i thought I'd try out the Angkor Wat I'd never built it before and thought i might just want to try it out, I'd never built it before since I don't usually assign priests in my cities, I'd far rather have scinentists, especially since you can have them unlimited (thank you caste system).

Anyways the Angkor Wat gives each priest a one hammer production bonus, I had no idea how this would work out. Now admitadely i hadn't assigned any priests before, i buiolt the Angkor Wat.Then I played and my production went up significant difference, having three prisets which grant 6 production, 3 wealth, and i had the pyramids which gave me a total of 9 beakers!

Now if this dosent dound like much i should say that whe producing military units i had:

50% for capital
25% for forge
____
75%

giving me a bonus of 10.5 hammers! Which is in my opinon a damn good bonus, if i had built a Heroic Epic it would have been even greater. Before i built the Angkor Wat i had never considered it essential, now i consider it a fantastic addition, especially to spiritual civilizations, my next game i plan to play as Ramases and assign many, many priests.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Anyways the Angkor Wat gives each priest a one hammer production bonus, I had no idea how this would work out.

I've played this game a few times, and really enjoy it. It completely resolves the classic debate of "where do you put the GP farm - with the food for specialists or with the production so you can build wonders?"

Answer: you can get about a zillion priest slots into your GP farm: One per temple, two per Cathedral, three per Shrine, three slots if you stick the Angkor Wat in your priest farm, Temple of Artemis, Obelisk if you are Egyptian.... Each of those converts 2F to 2H.

The disappointing bit is that something has to give. You'd like to have all these hammers multiplied by Ironworks. You'd like to have all the money multiplied by Wall Street. You for sure want all the GP points multiplied by the Epic. Pick any two.

In practice, that means attaching the Prophets to the GP farm, and punting on Ironworks (GP farms have enough health problems), or schlepping the Prophets to some other Ironworks/Wallstreet Combo, which maybe means you aren't building all those wonders in your GP farm after all. Partly this is determined by how good/lucky you are at getting religions to found where you want them to.

 

[svv]

There's no need to put Ironworks in your GP farm. You can still put Angkor Wat in City A, and put the super-priests in another city. You don't get the extra priest slots for Angkor Wat, but as you point out you can typically put in a bunch of priests, even without caste system, for temples, shrines, etc.

I like to put priest specialists in my shrine/wall street city for the gold. Meanwhile, you can use priests everywhere else as a substitute for engineers (which are hard to get anyway, with only 1 for the forge and 2 more for the factory). They provide the same hammers as engineers, plus the gold.

 

[Quagga]

I rarely try to build this wonder, but I have captured it a few times.

Having priests produce like engineers is really great. It means you can get a extra production out of any city that has excess food. It means being able to get some production out of that commerce city, since the priests are good for gpt too.

Also, it doesn't go obsolete until Computers. That's a good, long life.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

There's no need to put Ironworks in your GP farm. You can still put Angkor Wat in City A, and put the super-priests in another city.

Of course there's no need... unless the goal is to arrange your civ so that your National Epic is multiplying the bonus from both the specialists and the wonders. If you want to be pounding out a lot of wonders in the GP farm, without giving up specialist points, then you need to attach hammers. Priest specialists generate prophets generate hammers, so you've got the synergy that you want, but it does mean giving up one of the multipliers.

If you are content to build your wonders elsewhere, the priests give enough production to the GP farm to take care of everything else. Prophets get attached to Ironworks/Wall Street, and you start aiming at 80 or 90 hammers per turn, base, for the pure gratuity of it.

Actually, Wall Street / Heroic Epic would be a better choice - same city location, just a different mix of wonders. And of course the Epic is switched off when you are building the gold multipliers, but that won't take long.

 

[Dnomal]

Personally i never build an ironworks in my GP farm, instead i have a national epic and a Globe Theater, so it can continue pumping out great people without worrying about happiness.

Then again i did have the benefit of having beuracracy, giveing a 50% bonus, and on marathon speed i didn't think it was worth the wait, if it had been quick or normal i probably would have slkipped globe and rushed a ironworks, then built happy buildings like mad.

But in my second city, Novgorord, i did assign a lot of priests with the national epic, and planned to build an ironworkd, but the game ended before i could build it.

 

[jerVL/kg]

The downside to building Angkor Wat and running all those Priest specialists is that your cities will spam an endless supply of Great Prophets -- which is good if you own (or capture) a bunch of Holy Cities, but other than building shrines, Prophets are the most useless Great People in the game.

I'll admit the added production bonus is nice (why build forges when you can build endless temples?) but whenever I build Angkor Wat, usually I get so frustrated with prophet spam that I wind up beelining computers just to get rid of them.

 

[LibertyGeis]

...get so frustrated with prophet spam that I wind up beelining computers just to get rid of them.

Irony is, obsoleting a wonder does nothing to the Great People points it makes, so all that does is sabotage your busybody priests.

EDIT: Eep, okay, so that will yank the rug out from under the Great Prophet-production machine by discouraging Priest specialists in the city automator. Sorry, wasn't thinking

 

[kniteowl]

This is what I do with the Angkor Wat Wonder... I play with Spain Isabella, she's generally the best leader to play with using Angkor Wat.

Depending on whether your capital has a reasonable Food surplus to support Lots of Priest. I'll go for the PP City (Priest Production) Found One or Two of the early Religions in your Capital. I Personally Prefer Two Religions, others May Say that's to much and the Extra Priest Assignment available from Shrines will be wasted because you don't have enough food surplus or health to support them. One Holy Religion in your capital will generally be enough. Going for three Religions is definitely going over the top because you ignore Worker techs and prevents you expanding the AI's are taking the best City spots away from you. In most games I say you shouldn't go for 3 Religions in your capital unless you're playing the Hydra Game... (3 Headed Hydra or more.)

Isabella is the best bet to get an early religon even on higher levels, under certain circumstances where she is near the coast or lake tiles because she starts with the techs fishing and Myst... so she can work those lake and coastal tile for early commerce and she can research a religious tech immediately. Isabella's Trait's ideal for this strategy too, Spiritual Means cheap temples so you can build them and assign more Priest Easily and Expansive means Extra health to allow you to assign more Priest Happiness isn't an Issue becuase by the time your Angkor Wat is up you should have Calander Resource hooked up or at the very least have the Monarchy Civic help you.

You should farm your Capital and grow your Pop there as quick and as possible, Don't Pass the health Cap. You should have this Military PP City up and running around the time Maces appear. Remember to Pop a GS to Light early Philosophy to have a head start on Angkor Wat. There's also the option to Oracle Slignshot to Philosophy if you choose to risk it

Once you have everything Sorted around the middles ages when Maces Appear, Your city should be something like this... all Farmable tiles should be farmed except obviously hills and forest Plains Tiles, Try to Keep Forested Plains tiles in sets of 2 for the health benefits, you don't benefit much from plains tiles when farmed until biology, their better off left alone untill replacable parts when you can build lumber mills for extra hammers.

You should have a base production of a minimum 20H or higher

You should have the following buildings in your capital

Health Buildings eg- Ganary, Aquaduct, Habour (If you've research Compass and your capital is near the coast)

Heroic Epic= + 100% Production on Military Units (remember to have a level 4 unit)
Forge = +25% Production

& Run the Civic Bureaucracy which gives you another +50% on production.

Assuming you've have a base production of 20H, The City should be producing units at 20*2.75 =55H a turn, that's any unit in the middle Ages every 2nd turn and that still doesn't include overflow.

Plus you have the Military advantage in the Middle Ages as you are Spain with your UU and UB, You'll over run your AI neighbours with the Mass production your units.

All Great Prophets, apart from the first couple that build shrines will become SUPER SPECIALIST in your Capital as they give you an extra 2H, and don't obsolete from computers tech, they don't benefit from the 1H from Angkor Wat either.

You can still use the PP City as to mass produce all the way into the modern age... theoratically... althought I have not played that far.

Basically after beelining to your UU and UB, the next techs to beeline are

Education - For the Military Academy and +50%

Consitution (optional) - For Representation for extra Breakers from Specialist it definitely helps you beeline to those important techs quicker

Steel - Ironworks - For another + 100% on production

Biology - Give + 1 Food to farms

At this Point in the game you should have a minimum base production of 30H or more from, higher helath and happy caps allowing you to work more farms and assigning more Priest meaning more hammers plus Great Prophets you assign as Super Priest.

This is assumed you ahev a Base Production of 30H

30*4.25= 127.5H SO around 127H

(Heoric Epic + Forge + Bureaucracy + Military Academy + Ironworks)

If you decide to War into the modern Age

Communism - For State Property, Computers isn't very Far from being researched at this point which will obsolete Angkor Wat (You can ignore the tech computers if you choose too) but most of the time I'd say the State Property Production City will be more powerful then a PP City at this point in time so convert all your farms to Watermills and Workshops. Remember you still keep the Hammers from the Super Priest Great Prophets as Angkor Wat Doesn't affect them.

Research any relevant techs for Factories and Powerplants etc...

This is a Warmonger Strategy Based solely upon, Mass producing units and beating your AI opponents with numbers.

You could argue that I Lose out on the +50% Commerce when running Bureaucracy. This is basically a choice really, which Oppotunity Cost is greater?
Extra Research and Gold from +50 Commerce? or Buiild more units that will allow you to conquer more cities from the AI which the new Cities will Produce the Research (Breakers) and Gold for you?

Maintainance Cost? The Shrine Income from your Holy Religion in City In your Capital should cover that.

Remember to Have your 2nd or 3rd City as a Commerce site to at least keep up in research with the AI in the Early and middles ages before you start Conquering.

NOTE: I've already be over "The Founding Religion for Shrines OR Speard Religion with Missionaries and build Cathedrals For Priest Specialist Debate on another thread so if you want to bring this up, I'm not gonna reply, it's really up your choice upon which decision is better

Btw
Temples cost 80H
Cathedrals cost 300H
on a standard map you require 3 temples to build a Cathedal of one religion
then there's also the cost of building a Missionary (40H) and the chance that it could fail in spearding Religion to that city.
And Possibly the cost of a Monastery 60H, if you decide not you run Organised Religion Civic

The Arguement is If I don't found any Religions and go the Cathedral route, instead of using those 1st couple of Great Prophets for shrines I can use them as Super Specialist and recover the lost hammers used for Temples and Cathedrals in "So Many" Number of turns.

But It doesn't take in consideration of the Time Factor, If you could recover those hammers earlier from building religious buildings, You could potentially use them on military and potentially capture a city or even eliminate a civ making you you one step closer to Victory but that's too difficult to claculate as part of our oppotunity cost

But on the other Side there's the risk you could lose out on founding an early Religion and also the cost of not having worker techs early enough or expanding early before the AI takes the best locations on the map.

Both Choices have their Pros and Cons. It's up to you which you think is the better choice, you can debate this among yourselves, I'm not getting invloved.

NOTE: Cathedrals are cheaper if you have the right resource. eg- marble,stone copper, depends on what resource the Cathedral is made up of for that religion

This is Long I Wonder if I missed something???

Anywayz Sorry for any Gammar or Spelling mistakes

Enjoy the Tips

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

Dont forget Saladin and the Madrassa. It comes a little later then the Obliesk and of course it costs more but...it give 4 culture, allows four specialists, allows the same amount of priest specialists, pre-req for universities (and oxford of course), and it doesnt go obsolete. So you'll be able to build a madrassa in any city you capture no matter the time period.

 

[kniteowl]

Dont forget Saladin and the Madrassa. It comes a little later then the Obliesk and of course it costs more but...it give 4 culture, allows four specialists, allows the same amount of priest specialists, pre-req for universities (and oxford of course), and it doesnt go obsolete. So you'll be able to build a madrassa in any city you capture no matter the time period.

Yeah I know... but the Priest arn't actually used untill Angkor Wat has been built, so they come a little early, and usually in that time before Pre-Angkor Wat you usually have your shrine and temples in place to support enough Priest when Angkor Wat comes online, and the Wonder Also give you 3 extra Priest to assign, so the extra Priest from the Arabs UU, isn't extactly necessary unless you have a higher then usual food surplus combined with high health or if you want to skip those temples for other builds.

Besides the +25% Breakers/Science is wasted becuase your not using your captial as a commerce centre.... because military Production city.

The UU you mass Produce isn't that great with a Resourceless knightthat has a higher withdrawal rate... now if there was a way to get 100% Withdrawal chance then I'd think different of the arab UU.

Too Bad Saladin isn't Philosophical in Warrlords like he was in Vanilla... I'd like to see how much of an effect He'll have in the production of Great Prophets... I'd wonder how many Prophets I Could Assign to the PP Capital for the extra Hammers.

In my Previous Post I Was Generally focusing on why the Best Civ using the Angkor Wat for this Strategy is Spain. The Traits and, the starting tech and the timing of the UU and UB have a very high synergy.

 

[Polycrates]

I don't think I've ever built it, but it seems to me that the best use of it might be to actually be able to generate a great prophet (or two) if you didn't get one early and you've already started on GS spam.
It's kinda hard for me to get great prophets after I've started on science specialists (and especially if I've built Great Library), since you can't get priests with Caste System.
So I guess it would be good if you happened to lightbulb Philosophy with a GS, (founded Taoism), and want to overtake your science cities in GP production for a great person or two to get a shrine (eg if you founded a later religion and are dedicated to its spread, or took the holy city of a popular early one).

Have people done this? Is it feasible/worthwhile?

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

The UU you mass Produce isn't that great with a Resourceless knightthat has a higher withdrawal rate... now if there was a way to get 100% Withdrawal chance then I'd think different of the arab UU.

It isnt that great...unless you dont have horses. Then, its pretty dang good. Its no fun playing with a civ that doesnt have the resource to make its own UU. With the withdrawal rate, I was tacking on flanking I and II, they were retreating in the mid-40% range. Thats decent when you look at it by itself, but then when you add that with chance for victory you have pretty good odds of not losing a battle. So instead of that 70% chance of losing the fight with a knight for example, you have a 75% chance of surviving the fight. And then if you have that medic III warlord unit in your stack, they'll be ready to go again in a turn or two. And eventually you'll have cavalry (30% withdraw) with flanking I and II and whatever other promotions you earned (combat I at least)

Definately not the best UU, but it lends towards interesting tactics.

 

[Dirk1302]

I think Angkor Wat is a reasonably good wonder. I don't base my strategy on it but i give it a try if i have stone. I think somewhat more of this one than somewhat related wonders like University of Sankore and Spinal Minaret. Running an SE you can get significant amount of production running priests in low production cities thereby reducing the need for constant slavery.

 

[kniteowl]

It isnt that great...unless you dont have horses. Then, its pretty dang good. Its no fun playing with a civ that doesnt have the resource to make its own UU. With the withdrawal rate, I was tacking on flanking I and II, they were retreating in the mid-40% range. Thats decent when you look at it by itself, but then when you add that with chance for victory you have pretty good odds of not losing a battle. So instead of that 70% chance of losing the fight with a knight for example, you have a 75% chance of surviving the fight. And then if you have that medic III warlord unit in your stack, they'll be ready to go again in a turn or two. And eventually you'll have cavalry (30% withdraw) with flanking I and II and whatever other promotions you earned (combat I at least)

Definately not the best UU, but it lends towards interesting tactics.

If you want to risk losing a GG you could give the Camel Archer F1 + F2 + Tactics (From GG) and get a total of 85% withdrawal chance, it'll increase to 90% when you upgrade to cavalry. I'd think it'd be sweet to have a Flanking 3 Promotion combined with tactics to have a 100% withdrawal chance, You'd be invincible when attacking but be vulnerable when defending because your unit only has offensive promotions.

So I don't think it'll break game balance, but others may think otherwise.

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

I'd think it'd be sweet to have a Flanking 3 Promotion combined with tactics to have a 100% withdrawal chance, You'd be invincible when attacking but be vulnerable when defending because your unit only has offensive promotions.

I think that would be a lot of fun. Just dont know if I have the courage to use a GG on increasing my retreat %s to the max. Hmm...definately woth trying when the game is wrapped up and you get that GG that you dont need.