Deity Modern Age Soured Me On 7; Too Many Bloated Options For Unfinished/Poorly Balanced Game

[aelf]

Second, you don't need culture to win a culture victory. You just need to research Natural History a bit early - maybe - but overall you do not need culture to win a culture victory. It's irrelevant. I don't know why people keep thinking having lots of culture is helping them win a culture victory.

On Deity, getting to Natural History early seems pretty crucial if you want to snag a few artifacts before they're gone. Getting to Hegemony early and doing the research in universities in various continents also gives you extra artifacts. That's potentially 2-4 artifacts you otherwise wouldn't have.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Also, about the role of culture, I was surprised, but artifacts feom future civics could actually work. If you have high enough culture and just lack 1-2 artifacts, you could grab them there, especially if you ignore civilization and ideology trees. You're likely to trigger score victory that way, but at least you'll trigger it with full cultural legacy paths.

 

[Sagax]

Second, you don't need culture to win a culture victory. You just need to research Natural History a bit early - maybe - but overall you do not need culture to win a culture victory. It's irrelevant. I don't know why people keep thinking having lots of culture is helping them win a culture victory.

I think people are looking at it from different angles, but technically both sides of the argument are correct.

You do need high culture in order to reach Nat History and Hegemony sooner (and ideally first). Even if artifact spawns are random, seeing them first allows you to plan a few turns ahead in terms of the best spawn settlements for your explorers and their optimal path for reaching the artifacts. You get to be proactive and dictate the pace, which is better than reacting to AI’s pace.

BUT - the moment you reach Hegemony as part of this optimal strategy, Culture as a yield becomes pretty much dead. In theory, the 1.1.0 changes were supposed to make culture output more meaningful, by adding artifacts as part of Future Civic completion. In practice, at least based on anecdotes, resorting to Future Civics is more of a way to recover from a cultural path went wrong (YMMV based on game settings). You may as well win the game sooner with other victories.

The best way I could reconcile both sides is this: Culture matters for the Cultural Victory, but the Civic Tree does not.

 

[CoconutTank]

Given the specific focus on artifacts for Cultural Victory, I would largely agree with Sagax that it's really hitting specific thresholds/civics that matters most for the artifact rush. And even if the advantage is very slightly temporal, I do think controlling the pace and revealing artifacts first is better, especially since an artifact dig site is now locked once anyone starts digging at it.

At least in regards to the rest of Modern though, I think the general Modern Civic Tree still matters a lot in some places. As someone that often goes to war, getting to Militarism II for Draft and Brandenburg Gate are pretty high priorities for me, as is deciding when to get Globalism and Nationalism for their +settlement bonuses (as opposed to progressing on the civ's own Civic Tree).

 

[tman2000]

On Deity, getting to Natural History early seems pretty crucial if you want to snag a few artifacts before they're gone. Getting to Hegemony early and doing the research in universities in various continents also gives you extra artifacts. That's potentially 2-4 artifacts you otherwise wouldn't have.

As soon as the research occurs, the artifacts become visible to everyone.

 

[tman2000]

You do need high culture in order to reach Nat History and Hegemony sooner (and ideally first). Even if artifact spawns are random, seeing them first allows you to plan a few turns ahead in terms of the best spawn settlements for your explorers and their optimal path for reaching the artifacts. You get to be proactive and dictate the pace, which is better than reacting to AI’s pace.

You don't see them first. As soon as you see them, everyone else can.

 

[tman2000]

Given the specific focus on artifacts for Cultural Victory, I would largely agree with Sagax that it's really hitting specific thresholds/civics that matters most for the artifact rush. And even if the advantage is very slightly temporal, I do think controlling the pace and revealing artifacts first is better, especially since an artifact dig site is now locked once anyone starts digging at it.

It's not specific thresholds. It's just natural history, the first civic.

You don't reveal artifacts "first", they are revealed to everyone.

 

[Taefin]

You get a bonus artifact for researching after hegemony, which matters for finishing CV faster, even if you would eventually get enough artifacts without these. This also means you could use culture to offset having less production/gold for explorers, probably doing fine with just 3 (3 exploration age, 4 nat wonders, 3 research, 3 ancient age, 1 overbuild and 1 suz, for instance).

 

[CoconutTank]

You don't see them first. As soon as you see them, everyone else can.

It's not specific thresholds. It's just natural history, the first civic.

You don't reveal artifacts "first", they are revealed to everyone.

I'm speaking from the single player perspective; I'm not sure how this is handled in multiplayer. But at least in single player, I definitely get to move my Explorers into position and start digging first BEFORE the AI gets to act. Or at least I get a head start on moving my Explorers into position before the AI does, either way. And I would argue that those are definitely advantages tied to personally choosing when to reveal said artifacts.

 

[Sagax]

You don't see them first. As soon as you see them, everyone else can.

“First” is probably an inaccurate term here, the idea is that it is proactive. It wouldn’t matter in a highly competitive multiplayer environment, but against AI I don’t think they are currently equipped to leverage on it. They can still be Explorer-crazy as always, but (everything below is speculation based on observations):

1. They don’t seem to have a hard trigger to drop everything and switch to producing Explorers the moment they “see” the artifacts.

2. They aren’t as good at using Gold strategically - I haven’t seen them doing anything comparable to stockpiling 3500 Gold in Exploration and rush-buying Explorer(s) at Natural History.

3. They don’t seem to spawn Explorers in optimal settlements that are closest to the digging sites.

Realistically, yes - the advantage is not that big against anyone with critical thinking and foresight. But we aren’t playing against a smart AI, we’re playing against a dumb AI with raw numerical bonuses.

 

[aelf]

You get a bonus artifact for researching after hegemony, which matters for finishing CV faster, even if you would eventually get enough artifacts without these.

Yeah, I don't get why that poster can't seem to understand this. For all the analysis they're doing on game mechanics, such a simple fact about how the game works escapes them.

 

[tman2000]

Yeah, I don't get why that poster can't seem to understand this. For all the analysis they're doing on game mechanics, such a simple fact about how the game works escapes them.

So apparently what "I just can't get" is that hegemony gives you one free artifact.

When someone else who has unlocked hegemony researches and reveals artifacts, I can see them to. So, instead of wasting resources on culture I can put them to anything else including actual explorers.

 

[CoconutTank]

So apparently what "I just can't get" is that hegemony gives you one free artifact.

When someone else who has unlocked hegemony researches and reveals artifacts, I can see them to. So, instead of wasting resources on culture I can put them to anything else including actual explorers.

If they start digging before you do then you won't get those artifacts, even if you have more Explorers.

 

[Siptah]

So apparently what "I just can't get" is that hegemony gives you one free artifact.

Or 2 or 3 in a good case, depending how your cities are spread out on different continents.

 

[tman2000]

If they start digging before you do then you won't get those artifacts, even if you have more Explorers.

But those sites will reveal to them at the same time they're revealed to me. All I have to do is leave one explorer on skip turn so I can check each turn if sites have been uncovered.

 

[tman2000]

Or 2 or 3 in a good case, depending how your cities are spread out on different continents.

Not really.

Look, I get the strategy you all are talking about. If you get hegemony WAY before everyone else you can position 3-4 explorers in one continent then do the research there. Then move on to the next continent. This ties victory merely to getting to hegemony first, which was the entire problem pre "fix".

Now, maybe you get hegemony a couple turns after an AI, and maybe you can tell which continent they are delving, and go to another continent with 4 explorers that hasn't been researched yet and grab all 4 artifacts.

Beyond that, there's no strategy. Just keep 2 explorers in your continent and 2-3 in another and the second sites appear, rush for them. Or, as others have said, just purchase the explorers in the closest settlement.

The idea that having lots of culture is needed for a culture victory is just not correct. There's a very limited case for that.

In the Modern Age, a better use of culture yields would be to spend culture to put ideological pressure on settlements, in the context of a world war. Then ideology needs to be reworked to activate sooner.

 

[Siptah]

Not really.

Look, I get the strategy you all are talking about. If you get hegemony WAY before everyone else you can position 3-4 explorers in one continent then do the research there. Then move on to the next continent. This ties victory merely to getting to hegemony first, which was the entire problem pre "fix".

Now, maybe you get hegemony a couple turns after an AI, and maybe you can tell which continent they are delving, and go to another continent with 4 explorers that hasn't been researched yet and grab all 4 artifacts.

Beyond that, there's no strategy. Just keep 2 explorers in your continent and 2-3 in another and the second sites appear, rush for them. Or, as others have said, just purchase the explorers in the closest settlement.

The idea that having lots of culture is needed for a culture victory is just not correct. There's a very limited case for that.

In the Modern Age, a better use of culture yields would be to spend culture to put ideological pressure on settlements, in the context of a world war. Then ideology needs to be reworked to activate sooner.

I'm not talking about dig sites, I'm talking about the artifacts from researching after Hegemony. But yeah, I guess you could get these too without getting Hegemony yourself if you park explorers in foreign museums and wait when research becomes available there. Nah, this shouldn't work, right? You cannot research without having Hegemony yourself.

But I think the victory needs an overhaul once again so that it actually needs Hegemony for yourself in order to see the dig sites. That alone would help a bit already to make it more tied to culture. And then.. there are many other options, e.g., requiring actual exhibitions that need culture investments before you can start the world's fair.

 

[tman2000]

I'm not talking about dig sites, I'm talking about the artifacts from researching after Hegemony. But yeah, I guess you could get these too without getting Hegemony yourself if you park explorers in foreign museums and wait when research becomes available there.

But I think the victory needs an overhaul once again so that it actually needs Hegemony for yourself in order to see the dig sites. That alone would help a bit already to make it more tied to culture. And then.. there are many other options, e.g., requiring actual exhibitions that need culture investments before you can start the world's fair.

So it's 4 artifacts if you are the first to research, that's what you meant. But then you have to spread your explorers all over the globe potentially, making it harder to rush the revealed sites.

But, as you said, 2-3 exploration artifacts, natural wonders, 2-3 research artifacts, 3-4 antiquity artifacts. Okay, I see what you're saying. I've been in a situation once where they might have made a difference, but I've also seen games where I would have picked up the artifacts anyway or would never had a chance anyway.

 

[Taefin]

So it's 4 artifacts if you are the first to research, that's what you meant. But then you have to spread your explorers all over the globe potentially, making it harder to rush the revealed sites.

If you have, for example, 4 explorers, each explorer is slightly more likely to start near an artifact if all 4 are on separate continents.

And to clear up the point about getting an artifact for being the first to research on each continent after hegemony (and this has never happened for me because I boost AI culture yields via a mod) you literally get an artifact added to you collection when you perform the research action at a museum/university for the first time on a continent. Your messages strongly imply that you are not interpreting this fact correctly and thinking only about the advantage you get in knowing where the sites are.

 

[tman2000]

advantage you get in knowing where the sites are.

But you literally don't get an advantage. Everyone knows where the sites are. The bonus artifact for researching is the only benefit for trying to rush hegemony, and you still have to trade off for researching on four continents - letting all other players know where all the artifacts are - or researching one continent with explorers ready so you can get that continent's artifacts.