Anglo-German Naval Agreement

[steviejay]

As I've got some spare time at work I was just moping about the internet, reading anything of interest and I came across an article on Wiki about the Anglo-German Naval Agreement. For those unfamiliar this was a treaty signed between Germany and Britain which pretty much shreaded what remained of the Treaty of Versailles and allowed Germany to construct a navy 'one third the size of the Royal Navy'.

Anyway, another article in the treaty was that the Royal Navy was to leave the Baltic Sea, allowing Germany to regain control, and to quote Addy himself, "Great Britain has in fact renounced her naval influence in the Baltic, a bottle that we Germans can close. The English cannot exercise any control there. We are the masters of the Baltic." The main reason for Germany wanting control of the Baltic was to ensure the continuing supply of Iron-Ore from Sweden, which was vital for German military expansion.

So my question is, if that clause was left out and despite an increased Germany Navy, Britain remained in the Baltic at the outbreak of WW2, would it have had a lasting impact on the conduct of the war? A British blockade similar to the one implemented in WW1 would have prevented Germany from reaching vital war supplies easily. The Germany navy would have been no match for their British counterparts (looking at numbers alone) however would the Luftwaffe have been able to bridge that gap? How good were the Luftwarre at fleet operations? If the British had stayed in the Baltic and disrupted the convoys, would Germany have been able to break out?

 

[Steph]

It would probably have no effect.

The British agreed to stay out of the Baltic... But once war errupted between Germany and Britain in 1940, the British had no "legal" reason to respect the treaty, and could have decided to blockade if they wanted to try it

 

[Adler17]

Hi,

At first Germany was in 1935 de facto up to France and Italy in the Washington treaty. This German- Anglo treaty should last at first only until a treaty with the other sea powers would have made later that year. Although there was such a meeting in 1936, Germany was not invited and also there no new treaty was made.
In the next time Germany was building up a fleet and 2 additional battleships, 2 carrier and 5 heavy cruiser were laid down. As it became clear Germany would face Britain in a war in 1939 the so called Z- Plan was made up, building up a much stronger force, able to cope with the RN. A few month later all of these ships were cancelled as ww2 broke out.
When war started Germany had 2 battleships operational, 3 Panzerschiffe, 2 heavy and 6 light cruiser. Also 22 destroyer and about 30 torpedo boats were ready. A force not big enough to cope the British in open combat, or at least they should not be so. Most other ships now planned or being built came to a halt, except the battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz, the carrier Graf Zeppelin and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, Seydlitz and Lützow, as they were built too far. Uboats and smaller ships up to destroyer size were now preferred.
However the question was, was it possible for the British to blockade the German coast in the Baltic? Well, at first from the very beginning until the very end the Baltic was a German lake, never contested by any other sea power. Only the Soviets had some little successes against German shipping at the end of the war. Mostly against refugee ships. But even then it was no contesting of the sea superiority.
Could the British stop that? That meant they needed a base. Poland was not very suitable as they were soon occupied. And Russian harbours were also not very suitable as there were grat tensions with Stalin. Finnland was too far away, neutral but had little possibilities to dock and repair capital ships. And Sweden wanted to keep their neutrality.
Also as the history of ww1 taught capital ships were not very suitable in the shallow waters of the Baltic and in danger of mines and coastal submarines. Additionally the Luftwaffe would have sent every plane available to sink enemy British ships. Also the Baltic was a bottle and with some mines or Uboats the bottle could be closed. To have ships there would mean to lose them very fast. Also keep in mind that, except carrier, the RN would have had no base for planes, too.
This all makes it silly for the British to maintain a great fleet there. Also if they would have done so they needed at least half of their navy to endanger German shipping. Without the protection of (many) planes. Also German planes shot down could be replaced easily, British not. So even half of the RN perhaps with most of the carrier, would be then an easy prey for Luftwaffe, Uboats, S- Boats and mines. The German fleet would have only to blockade the exit and deny the way to escape and soon the British RN was hidden badly.
No, a British force in the Baltic in ww2 was doomed. So having this in mind it is obviously for the British to have no ships in the Baltic when war broke out with Germany.

Adler

 

[steviejay]

heh thanks Adler, kinda knew you'd help me out with this.

Steph, I read a bit more into the whole thing and I agree with you. I even discovered this Project Catherine, this was a proposed plan by Churchill to do pretty much what I was thinking, however due to various reasons given (airpower primarily) this plan never got past it's intial stages

 

[mrtn]

Quite a lot of that coveted Swedish iron ore came from Kiruna, and was shipped from Narvik in Norway. In other words, not through the Baltic.

 

[Joe Harker]

The reason russian baltic ports were not used was because it was well into 1943
before the russians began recapturing them and the germans had destroyed many of them in their retreat, also the British would have had to sail right under the luftwaffe noses to get through and the Admarity could afford ships that could otherwised be used elsewhere

 

[steviejay]

Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking. I suppose although planes were underrated early in the war, the sinking of Force Z (iirc) would have changed their minds quickly and put the fear of God into them.

what was the state of the Russian navy at the start of WW2 (1939, not 1941 for them) could they have made any difference?

 

[Adler17]

The Russian Navy had three Gangut class battleships operating, two in the Baltic (Marat, Oktjabarskaja Revoluzia), one in the Black Sea (Parishkaya Kommuna). All of them were no match for any German battleship of ww2. They were already 28 years old dreadnoughts with a displacement of about 23.600 ts. There were also just completed or being completed 4 Kirow class heavy cruiser as the most modern and capable ships. The other cruiser, the CA Krasny Kawkas, CL Aurora, Chervona Ukrayna, Profitern and Komintern, were also built between 1900 and 1915 and were also totally outdated. Much better suited were the modern flotilla leaders of the Leningrad (6 ships) resp. Tashkent classes (1 ship). The destroyer force was a little better. 46 destroyer of the Gnevy class were built or being built as well as 17 old ww1 DD of the Nowik class, which based on a German desing and was by introduction the best DD of the world, but now they were totally outdated. There were also some newer torpedoboats and ww1 torpedoboats of limited capabilities. The submarine force however was one of the biggest. From Maltyuka and ShCh coastal submarines to the Leninec, Stalinec, Dekabrist, Katyusha and Prawda classes. These forces were very strong, and perhaps Russia had the strongest submarine force in the beginning of ww2 in the world. However most of them were the small M type SC, which had only 2 torpedo tubes. At last there were many smaller vessels from PT boats to minesweepers.
In the war with Germany and its allies, mostly Rumania and Finland, the Russian navy had severe losses at three of the 4 coasts she should protect. About 35- 40% of their submarine force fell victim to enemy actions. The real great successes of them occured in the last days by sinking refugee ships in the Baltic, with the catastrophes of the Goya, Steuben or Gustloff to name only three. However they were never able to get the sea superiority in the Baltic until the very end. 27 destroyer were lost only to German forces, including flotilla leaders Tashkent and Baku and 12 of the Gnevys. Also lost were the Chervony Ukrayna and Komintern as CL. NO CA was lost, but all in the theatres of operation damaged heavily. The Petropawlowsk, ex German Lützow, which was delivered as part of the Hitler Stalin pact, was a total loss before completition. The Marat was the only battleship to be sunk and also a total loss (by Rudel and his Ju 87). Most of the surface fleet was also damaged during the war and, except the Black Sea, never played a significant role, so that the Baltic was a German lake throughout the war.
Even the last German sea victory happened there:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=119426

Adler