Annoying Allies in a Dogpile

[Apollo XI]

I'm playing a Regent game as China on a Large Map. I control my own continent and a sizable island. I'm currently the top country in the game, leading by 200 points. I declared war on Japan, who is second in the game so far (besides being a threat to me, they were the closest, so, yeah) and who also has their own continent, but isn't as advanced as me. Me, using my luxuries and gold, got the whole world (five other countries) to gang up on them with me so they would receive no aid whatsoever.

The war is going well. I took an island from them that is identical to my own, and I'm currently invading their continent. Took their capital and three other cities.

However, my stupid allies are annoying me, especially Egypt (but Egypt just annoys me in general--I hate Cleopatra; always betrays me somehow). In Egypt's case, they broke our MA against Japan a few turns EARLY, and, IMMEDIATELY, in the same turn, gave them Nationalism and Industrialization, when Japan was previously a few techs behind the whole world, still in the Medieval era, and I was taking out their ancient samurai with ease with my calvary and cannons. Now, thanks to the Egyptians, they have Riflemen--though, I'm assuming they don't have a lot, but, STILL. It's enough for them to annoy me by drafting a Rifleman when they see me approaching one of their cities. That, and my MA with Rome expired, and, in the SAME TURN, again, they gave them more techs.

Is there anything I can do about this annoyance? Or is this just natural, stupid, disloyal AI behavior that I can't change? Everyone in the world loves me thanks to all the luxuries and gold (never gpt, of course) that I give them in exchange for the MA, but, the moment that our MA either expires or the moment they break it, they are "annoyed" with me again--until, of course, I "renew" our MA by offering a brand new MA. I'm just lucky Japan has no horses to build Cavalry with, since, thanks to my lovely AI allies, they are now capable of that.

What can I do about this, if anything? I believe the feature to automatically renegotiate deals is turned on--so, unless it's the AI always breaking my MAs, I don't know what to do, other than have no allies and have other countries trade with and help Japan.

 

[Aceman101]

The AI is always like this, don't expect them to actually help you with any wars. But sometimes, or many times they can actually be at war for more than 30 or 40 turns. If the ally have destroyed many of the enemies cities, and the enemy has no techs, maps, luxuries, resources, gpt, reasonable amount of gold or communications, then the ally, is likely to be at war with the enemy for as long as it takes.

But a MA is better than them signing a MA against you. But I don't like the idea of giving techs to the AI to sign a MA against an enemy. It's good that you use luxuries to make the AI accept a MA, but often, they want more. And sometimes, they don't want to no matter how much stuff you give them. But you should always check because once, I checked if the English would sign a MA against an enemy, and they actually gave me gold and they weren't even at war with this civ.

If your army is really really big, and is much bigger than any other army, then you don't necessarily need allies, just defend the attacks with muskets or riflemen. They will lose a lot of troops, and eventually their armies will die out.

But often this is not how the game works in higher difficulty levels. Most of the time in Monarch+ the strongest AI will have a lot more troops than you. Unless you have a massive empire that constantly churns out veteran troops. So, in higher levels, you have to play it safe and build embassies and check if there are any reasonable deals the AI is willing to do to sign a MA.

But you need to have lots of gold, that shouldn't really be a problem in Republic or Monarchy though.

A lot of people here lean more towards offensive most of the time, but when you are in tough situations like multiple civs having a MA with you, I'd recommend you to stick to defensive and take out as many attackers as you can in your territory with attacking units, but be sure to build defenders in border cities.

Just some advice.

 

[Mesodius]

As far as I know there is nothing you can do. The AI notoriously "gifts" (might as well be gifting, for what rates they give each other) each other techs. If one of the AI allies is tiny compared to the Japanese, I wouldn't bother bringing them into the alliance at all. While this may cause the Japanese to get them to ally against you, they are probably tiny enough to be a minor concern, and also there will be less chance of the tiny AI giving the Japanese a tech in exchange for peace (likely scenario if the Japanese are much larger). If you gave your AI allies a tech advantage over the Japanese to get them in the war with them (you said you did it with Luxes, so thats fine), that is also a mistake, because you know the Japanese will end up with that tech.

All this point all you can do is keep the Japanese from getting horses, and slog through those riflemen. If you can get your allies to redeclare then fine. To answer your question- in my experience, this is extremely common behaviour for the AI.

 

[Apollo XI]

All right. So, I guess I just have to live with it. = \

That's also, true, that a MA against them is better than one against me. Now, everyone loves me too much to backstab me. The only real difficulty in the war is the distance between me and Japan. It takes about four/five turns for my ships to reach their continent, which makes it hard for me to keep a steady flow of reinforcements going, but it's been getting better. I have about 4/5 galleons going back and forth between continents in a constant train. (The year is 1570AD, btw.) That, and Japan isn't THAT far behind me technologically, so they won't be COMPLETE pushovers.

However, I'm currently getting over 500GPT from other countries for technologies/luxuries (I never trade techs for MAs; I just buy their loyalty and/or give them one of the many luxuries I have), and I'm a few turns away from rushing the Theory of Evolution with a GL that I've been saving. So, money or technology isn't a problem.

I guess I'll eventually win.

Thanks for the replies. ^_^

 

[Aceman101]

I would attack the civs on my home continent first. It's much more easier and you don't have to keep building and repairing ships. Then when you've conquered your home continent, attack the closest civ to you on a different Island.

I understand you are making a huge profit from trading but by now, your empire should be able to support itself without making huge profits. I'm not saying this so you never trade again, I'm saying it because when you still have civs on your home continent, you have to get rid of them, and if you are going into a deficit for some reason, then you have to cut back on units and lower the science slider.

And to my experience Japan is a deadly naval producer. In one of my games, it was very, very hard. They built tens of tens of battleships, but surprisingly, no carriers. Anyway, IMO you should take out the neighbor that you are making least profits with. But it has to be close to your territory.

I'll tell you a story of what happened to me... Once when I was playing byzantines, Arabia declared war on me. This was after steam power. Arabia was on the very north of my continent. I was on the south. My army was waay bigger then theirs, and I had a huge stack of workers. So what I did was, I signed a ROP agreement with India (My neighbor) and I made a railroad with my workers through their territory.

You have to defend every stack of workers when you do this. So anyway, when the railroad was complete and it went through India's territory, I sent my stack of 300 troops through the railroad and into Arabia's territory. I used my artillery to bomb every town's defenders to 1 hp. Then I captured every town. It only took about 15 turns, until I gained control of the north. India was in the middle.

Anyway, what was the point of telling you all this? Just to give you some ideas of what you can do to Civs on your continent. But you cannot build railroads and Instantly jump towards cities with civs on different continents. And then you have to build all the ships. And then you have to build harbours. Personally, I love doing these naval wars and everything, but I limit myself. I know I should take out my continent first - And you should too.

Just some more advice to you.

 

[Mesodius]

I would attack the civs on my home continent first. It's much more easier and you don't have to keep building and repairing ships. Then when you've conquered your home continent, attack the closest civ to you on a different Island.

Good advice. I used to attack only whatever Civs bothered me first or were most aggressive, but it is MUCH easier to wage a campaign on your home continent than one halfway across the world, especially before you have high capacity ships. You can't let your personal feelings or trade relationships get in the way of cold hard logic. If you control the whole continent, you will have more resources, more cities to build troops with, and be more secure from attack (as the AI is notoriously bad at attacking across an ocean).

 

[Sashie VII]

And it's much easier to do it early and often, by continually taking/razing their cities until your campaign is about to stall, then sue for peace and take concessions (tech etc). Once the treaty expires, do it again, each time leaving them with less cities and resources.

 

[Aceman101]

Good advice. I used to attack only whatever Civs bothered me first or were most aggressive, but it is MUCH easier to wage a campaign on your home continent than one halfway across the world, especially before you have high capacity ships.

This is very true. If you had to transport many troops across the sea, you'd wait until you get at least galleons. Which is another reason why you should stick to your continent first. After all, how many can fit in a galley or caravel? 2 units for galley, 3 for caravel. This would mean that if you wanted a constant supply of troops across the sea, you'd have to build about 20 galleys. If the continent was close, maybe 10 galleys. With galleons, it is reduced greatly, but 4 transport capacity is still not enough to make a massive invasion.

Transports could formally carry 8 units, now in Complete, it's only 6. This is not good for you, but it is more of a disadvantage to the AI, since they only build a few. So I guess you could say, it's good and bad. But with the AI you never know - they could send 2 galleons fully loaded up, or 2 transports with just one troops in each, which is particularly stupid.

You can't let your personal feelings or trade relationships get in the way of cold hard logic. If you control the whole continent, you will have more resources, more cities to build troops with, and be more secure from attack (as the AI is notoriously bad at attacking across an ocean).

Exactly, and just to add to this, I would start building a military force after I conquered my home continent. Sure you can build 10 Battleships or cruisers for coastal bombardment, but don't get out of hand, until you conquer your own continent first.

I, myself, have a problem with building military units, and build waay to many even if I still have not conquered my continent first.

 

[Apollo XI]

I would attack the civs on my home continent first. It's much more easier and you don't have to keep building and repairing ships. Then when you've conquered your home continent, attack the closest civ to you on a different Island.

I mentioned earlier that I own my own continent. ^_^ I kicked the Americans and the Zulus off of it a few hundred years ago, and destroyed them on an island that is immediately to the NW of the NW corner (kind of like how Britain is to Europe). So, I own the entire continent and that island. That's why I decided to go to war with Japan, since they are the closest to me (on a separate continent all of their own) and since they are second to me in the game (which is going to slowly but surely change). I always make sure I own my own continent before I wage war overseas.

So, I have an immense amount of resources and luxuries. There were SEVEN GEMS all WITHIN THE CITY RADIUS of Washington. It made my mouth water, so I had to take it--and I did, along with their entire country. And that isn't even half of all the luxuries I have. So, I can definitely support myself--if I couldn't, I wouldn't have made all these deals and have gone to war with a country on a continent that's 5 turns away.

 

[Aceman101]

Sorry, I lost track of that. Anyway, go for the Jap's. But keep in mind that they are a deadly naval AI. And let us know how it goes.

 

[btfx]

To answer the original question, you should have gotten an embargo along with the alliance (I think it would be free). Make sure to renew the embargo when it ends, if you signed it on your turn it will end on yours too, so you can renew right away.

 

[Aceman101]

Hmm, I'm not in favor of alliances or embargo's myself. I had to put up with Aztec knights for 20 turns... I was foolish enough to think I could even capture some Aztec cities when I haven't even researched chivalry. This was in my story game. Luckily, I didn't loose any towns. But I did loose a lot of good troops.