Another SGL Question!

[Snarkhunter]

First: I had a save--but this machine can't look at flash drives. I'll have to get it here some other way. My apologies. So we'll have to start with the basic question & fill in the details later.

This is my second real attempt on Emperor: 80% archipelago, Byzzies, an island with 2 luxes & no real resources. I decided to go for diplomatic victory, but I've never done it before & am a little hazy about the best way to proceed. At about 1/3rd through the middle ages, I popped an SGL. Now, the certain-est way to go would be just wait until time comes to build the UN, then burn the SGL to insure I control the process. But that's a long time to wait! Is there a better use?

The plot thickens: I now am very near the IA--and have popped a second SGL. So I can definitely burn one of them on something sweet & still carry out the mindless plan above. Or I can burn both of them, if this is better. I have been able to build Cope's & I'm certain I'll get Newton's all on my own; I've more or less climbed into the tech lead. bach's is gone, leo's doesn't interest me, & I doubt I could put Shake's to good use--too crowded on my little island! The obvious is ToE in about 5-6 techs. But again, what's another good/better choice for these 2 SGL's?

I'll post the save when I can figure out how to get it here. The whole game started out cautious, then I got a little schizoid trying to figure out how to carry out the Plan. So there's probably any number of things I would do differently or could do better that experienced players would spot in a nanosecond. I'm having a tough time generally with Emperor & 80% 'pelago isn't playing out anything like I thought it would!

kk

 

[Aabraxan]

I'm not at a computer where I can load up civs and see what's available, but what's the story on Smith's? How big is your empire?

 

[Snarkhunter]

I'm not at a computer where I can load up civs and see what's available, but what's the story on Smith's? How big is your empire?

The original island has about 5 cities & 7-8 towns, tops. It isn't terribly productive. I can maybe promote 1 or 2 more of the towns to cities with a 'duct or two, but that's about it. I have discovered a very large tundra island which had a 3rd lux & iron--which I didn't have. One reason why my empire will look a little strange is that I frantically pumped out settlers from everything I could see, except my cities, to try to cram onto that island as much as possible. Took quite a while, & now the Russkies & Celts have a couple of towns there as well. I actually have more towns in tundra land than in my core but of course they aren't doing anything except offering some very modest support. My military is almost all AC from SoZ, plus some odds and sods I threw at tundra land so that the AI's wouldn't just walk in. Roughly 20 dromons, just in case someone thought they might like to invade

Smith's--I just traded for economics a couple of turns ago. So I guess I could get it without a hitch. (I don't usually go for it; that's why it didn't occur to me.) I don't have many markets, but do have libs/unis/harbors. Doesn't Smith's pay for harbors? I'm running my sliders pretty consistently at 80/20 research/lux, so banks wouldn't help, right?

Overall, I think I got too paranoid about being so weak to everyone in the beginning & overbuilt my military to prevent an invasion. I do have ROPs with everyone--it's not like they are going to walk through my territory at the moment (except in tundraland)--& they are all my best buds. For the moment As I say, it's been an unusual game for me, especially since I'm determined to try for a diplo--not my usual domination. I'm going to need to figure out who to engineer a dogpile on before the vote, I guess, & try to have a lot of bribe stuff handy to ingratiate myself with everyone. . . .

kk

 

[Snarkhunter]

Ok, I figured out a work-around for the save file. I don't do this too often, but I think it is attached. The number in the title is the seed number--I'm slowly working my way through all the seeds in numeric order

This should be from within a couple of turns of getting the first leader. The frantic campaign to settle Tundra Island has just revved up. How it got to this point:

1) It's a pretty modest Empire. I decided that it would be too tough to grind out a domination win, not knowing at the time that many of the AI's would have equally modest empires. Culture didn't make sense to me, & I didn't think that I would be productive enough for a spaceship victory. So, diplomatic it is.

2) I didn't build much military at first, but depended on SoZ for my force. I didn't have iron or horses & didn't see much prospect of getting any.

3) For a while I had twice as many workers as towns, but, well, there isn't much point in a super large worker force for this game, IMHO. I don't want to disturb the few cities I have, but nearly everything else is up for settler duty, no matter how long it takes them. I don't want to risk any dromons w/ settlers, so I have to go the long way around to get to Tundra Island; I've basically started a settler pipeline to it. I forgot that I would need more advanced techs to actually get the incense/iron back home, so I'm in thumb-biting mode waiting until I can do ocean routes. Ultimately, I will fill up the island, turn off the settlers, & try for some semblance of rationality back home I have to decide how many workers I need to rail everything--but I can't count on coal, though I might be able to trade for it with a good enough monopoly tech. I later got spices & horses that way, by accident--the AI offered, so I took. I can then rejoin a number of workers to towns, as I won't need them much any more.

4) Support costs are an issue, which is why I think I went overboard on building defense. I don't have a good feel for how much I need to keep the AI's from thinking they can invade me, but that's all I want, really.

5) I built lots of dromons as well, so that if I did detect an invasion, I could try throwing them en masse & wiping the invaders out.

6) No GA as yet. I suppose I'll set one off with a wonder at some point; I'd like to do this game without fighting any wars at all. As I've said, I'm certain I'll get Newton's; that will give me 2 sci wonders (with Cope's). Doesn't that set off a GA? If so, it will give me about 15 turns of IA, which is not too shabby. If not, I'll do something else.

So: what to do with 2 SGL's now, & what to have done at this point in the save?

kk

 

[Spoonwood]

You need a scientific wonder and a seafaring wonder to wonder-trigger a GA with the Byzantines (or one wonder which satisfies both traits, e.g. the Museum of Mausollos).

 

[Snarkhunter]

You need a scientific wonder and a seafaring wonder to wonder-trigger a GA with the Byzantines (or one wonder which satisfies both traits, e.g. the Museum of Mausollos).

Because of that, I switched Newton to Magellan, then was bummed out to discover that Cope's is expansionist (being an apprentice astronomer, it never occurred to me that it would be anything other than scientific!). I can still get Newton by building it; I had thought that I would trigger a GA exactly on reaching the IA. It will be about 10-12 turns into it or so. I did get steam as my freebie, nice bit of luck there & oddly enough, 2 sources of coal on my main island. Even with a limited worker force it won't take long to rail such a small island. The plan now is use one SGL to get ToE right away, but probably not bother with Hoovers. Not sure factories make much sense for this game. Still mulling over using the second leader on Smith's. I don't have that much in the way of commercial stuff to pay for, but it adds up over time. Basic idea is to race through the tech trees ASAP, build UN, engineer vote, etc.

kk

 

[TheOverseer714]

You can rarely build enough defensive units to avoid invasions, since the AI respects offensive units more. I think it sees 2 Archers as equally scary as 4 Spears. Therefore, build mostly offensive units except for border towns. Also, mostly build Barracks in core cities, if it takes more than 10 turns to build a unit, the upkeep on a Barracks isnt worth it.

 

[Snarkhunter]

You can rarely build enough defensive units to avoid invasions, since the AI respects offensive units more. I think it sees 2 Archers as equally scary as 4 Spears. Therefore, build mostly offensive units except for border towns. Also, mostly build Barracks in core cities, if it takes more than 10 turns to build a unit, the upkeep on a Barracks isnt worth it.

Ah, well, when I build "defense", I usually mean "offense" In this case, the question was, how many units would dissuade the AI, apart from the ancient cavs, & given that the best you've got is archers, until you get an ocean route to the iron. (Well, longbows, too, I suppose) In this game I did build 2 spears & 3 muskets, (having found saltpeter, to my great surprise), & a few medinfs. But this was probably too much or too little.

I keep getting horses in trades for a tech, so I'm building cavs, but it's the same issue: should I bother building any, ie, can I bribe the AIs to play nice, or should I assume I need a strong force handy, just in case? (& if so, how strong?) Psychologically, I prefer the latter, but if there's a way to avoid building all that stuff--for this VC & on this style map-- it strikes me as more efficient & I'd like to learn it. Too late now, I guess--maybe next time I go for diplo, I'll just build a few token troops & see if I can handle it.

Update: the AI's got rowdy & I had to fight simultaneous wars with Cleo & Alex. I reloaded a few times at this point trying to see if this was avoidable; it didn't seem to be, so I continued, fighting virtually all of it at sea with my dromon navy. All that's finished now. I'm on the verge of refining, hoping that Tundra Island is so large it's bound to have some oil, whereupon I'll have the same decision to make about tanks/bombers as I did about cavs. I think this time I will make very few of either as the modern age will be close. Partly, it will depend on which AI's have oil. I've got about 5000 in gold which I intend for bribes, along with any and all the techs I can lead with. No rubber & no spare sources--Russia traded off its 2nd source the turn it got RP--so no inf; I might have replaced my cavs on a 1-for-1 basis otherwise, to take advantage of the higher defense. Assuming oil, I could still do that with tanks, but there shouldn't be time to build many, as I said. tentatively, no factories in this game.

It's been educational so far. Now: can someone give me a quick review of the tactic to follow when you hold the UN vote? I'd appreciate it!

kk

 

[vmxa]

Not very tricky. You count your friends and you enemies. If you have enough friends you say yes to the vote and win. If you do not have the votes, you either not call a vote or bribe enough votes to win.

 

[Snarkhunter]

Not very tricky. You count your friends and you enemies. If you have enough friends you say yes to the vote and win. If you do not have the votes, you either not call a vote or bribe enough votes to win.

Can you assume that anyone polite is a friend, or do they have to be gracious?

kk

 

[vmxa]

Polite is usually good enough. Normally I will look at who is going to be nominated with me. Who is left other than the nominated nation. Have I been at war with them, has the other nation been at war with them?

If they are not furious with me, can I get a war with the other nominee and have others join me? Count them out and see if I need more action. If need be, try to eliminate a nation that is sure to vote with the other guy.

Start a few turns in advance of the vote and gift them something, if they are likely to be in your camp. Normally for me, I will have no friends and I only built the UN to prevent any votes.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

A cheap tactic that won me a diplomatic victory is to decalre war on a chief rival and get everyone else in a milatary alliance against them. Careful about MPP's, but if you don't actually attack, I think you're fine (correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[Bartleby]

To avoid triggering a MPP you need to not attack them in their own territory (i.e you can kill them in your territory or in neutral territory) and also you must not end your turn with any units in their territory.

 

[Snarkhunter]

A cheap tactic that won me a diplomatic victory is to decalre war on a chief rival and get everyone else in a milatary alliance against them. Careful about MPP's, but if you don't actually attack, I think you're fine (correct me if I'm wrong)

In this case, it turned out to be anti-climactic: my chief rival DOW'ed me for no apparent reason 2 turns before the election; everyone else but one was already friendly to me; I got 'em all into alliances against the aggressors & bribed them rather easily into graciousness. End of story (-:

kk

 

[Donny Brook]

The plot thickens: I now am very near the IA--and have popped a second SGL.

Wow, I didn't know you could have two SGLs at the same time. IIRC, you can only have one MGL at a time or am I mistaken? What about one MGL and one SGL at the same time?

 

[Bartleby]

If you have an SGL, you won't be able to get a MGL. But you can get an SGL when you already have a leader of either type. In one of my Histo games I ended up with an MGL and three SGL's (although I may have used on of the SGL's to hurry the Cure for Cancer).

 

[vmxa]

Yup the game had a check to see if you have a leader during the combat generation, no check for SGL as they did not exist prior to C3C.