Any Advice for a Dove Who Doesn't Want to Get Winged?

[Scheherezade]

(Stupid title, I know, but hey... )

Okay, here's my problem. I totally SUCK at this game. I _love_ these games, but I'm really really bad at them, no matter how hard I try. I get my arse handed to me on a silver platter even at _Chieftain_ level and I'm sick and tired of ending up with titles like "The Meek" or "The Stupid". Now, I know the main way to change my luck is to simply:

PLAY DIFFERENTLY

...but I don't want to. I _want_ to win or at least do better, enough to where I can dare to go up in the difficulty levels at least, eventually..._without_ changing my main overall play style that much.

And I bet YOU experts, here on this board, are the ones who can help me do that.

What is my general play style? Well, like I said, I'm a Dove...though not a _total_ wimp. Let me list my priorities and so forth here, to give you an idea.

I like:

--Building as opposed to conquering; although I WOULD try conquering if only it didn't take me so flipping _long_ to make new troops when the AI can crank out like 20 of them per turn...

--The Space Race victory instead of the conquer the world one.

--Science! And technology of course.

--Wonders! Some more than others, but I always get a kick every time I _beat_ another Civ to one of them. Bwahaha! (Favourite wonders include the Great Wall, Leonardo's Workshop, and the Lighthouse, to give you an idea of what I like.)

--Exploring, as much as possible (one of my side-goals is always to get rid of ALLLLLLL the black on the map, eventually. Probably impossible but hey, at least I have _fun_ while trying...)

--I have "bloodlust" off and pollution on when I play...

--Big maps with lots of room to explore and move around in

--Democracies and Republics

--I leave people alone until they attack ME, then I will always try to take the conquered city _back_. And if really in a bad mood, I may try to take one of theirs too.

I DON'T like:

--Fundamentalism, Monarchy, Despotism. Yes, I _know_ you can crank out troops real easy and wage war with Fundamentalism, but I still don't want it. Science suffers. Also, religious fanatics irk me and freak me out in real life, I certainly don't want to _play_ as one.

--Lots of rampaging barbarian hordes

--Cramped maps where I bump into the neighbors long before I'm even vaguely ready

--NUKES. Don't tell me to build nukes, I refuse to use them. It's silly, I know, but I play Civilisation with my own real-life personality and values, and that means: no weapons that freak me out in real life. (I also refuse to make biolgical warfare stuff in Call to Power, even if my enemies _are_ using them.)

--Giving in to demands. I will _trade_ technologies but never, ever just GIVE them stuff. Same for money. Even if I _know_ they can crush me with just their little pinky, I just plain flat out do _not_ give in to bullies.

--Pollution--if there's any way I can boost the productivity of my city _without_ making polluting things such as factories, I'll take it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So...that's how I like to play. Building, exploring, getting advancements and having nice big happy cities with lots of neat buildings.

Now, you experts out there...tell me...HOW can I play as a (mostly) peaceful, scientific, democratic nation and still do well? I'd mainly like to be able to expand much faster, but it takes so LONG to make new settlers, and they _move_ so slowly once formed, too! How can I play the way I play and do _well_, be powerful, successful, have a huge empire, and be dangerous enough to be able to demand tribute from OTHER nations if I want and actually _get_ it...and yet still have good science rate? I would also _love_ to have enough money to just flat out BUY cities, I've never even done that in my entire life...(I didn't even _know_ about that option before coming to this site, in fact.)

So...any tips? How can I be powerful and have a big empire and expand quickly and easily without having a whole bunch of tiny, impoverished, undefended cities?

Thanks in advance for any help you can give...

...Notorious

 

[la fayette]

The answer to your question is TRADE.
Build caravans and deliver them all around the world (preferably to fat foreign cities overseas). It will bring you anything you need: gold and beakers

 

[Scheherezade]

Yeah...I _try_ Trade, it just takes so long for my caravans to actually GET anywhere, and they often get killed along the way...

By the way, a few other random questions:

1. Are there any particular Civs I should play as? Or avoid? Or does it not really matter, as long as you know what you're doing?
My faves include people like the English, the Japanese, the Greeks...and the Vikings, for some unexplained reason. (My "best" game so far on Civ 2 was as the Vikings...and at the end, my title was "Verdandi the Glutton". Glutton. And that was my BEST game. Should give you an idea of how badly I suck...)

2. How quickly should I pop out new cities? I know that expanding fast at the beginning of the game is crucial, but I feel that making at least a small garrison for each city would be a really good idea BEFORE I make them crank out a Settler... (I don't consider a new city to be "able to survive on its own" until it has two soldiers at least, a granary, and preferably a city wall, and hopefully also another Settler to make farms/mines around it. But I _would_ be willing to crank out another Settler with them after making JUST the two soldiers, if absolutely necessary.)
I mean, well, I know I have to make new cities _quickly_, I just want to know: how fast is fast enough while still being _practical_?

3. I heard about "incremental rush-buying" elsewhere on this board, but I don't know what that is. What is it and how do I do it?

4. This is not really IMPORTANT but I've _always_ wondered, and it's not mentioned in any of the FAQ's...
Just _what_ IS it that makes them upgrade my palace?
I've always wondered. It's not happiness, 'cos they do it when they're feeling only medium-happy at best. It's not wealth, 'cos I've seen them do it while we're _losing_ money. It's not really military power or right after we build a Wonder or stuff like that, sometimes, either.
_Is_ there any rhyme or reason, or is it totally random? I know it's silly, but I really like when they upgrade my palace/throne room/monuments and I'd like to know what I have to do in order to _make_ them do it more often. (Sure, I could just look at pictures of the finished stuff here on this site, but I don't wanna: I want to have them build it themselves. )

Shutting up now...oh, and THANK YOU for reading my long post and giving me actual advice, instead of yelling at me! I know I ramble on and on and on...I can't help it, it's just my way. Lots of times people on messageboards are _mean_ to me about it, especially when I'm brand-new. So I just wanted to say thanks for taking my problems seriously, instead of, for example, yawning and saying I had put you to sleep. (Which is a reaction I get from people far too often...)

...Notorious

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Scheherezade
[B--Wonders! Some more than others, but I always get a kick every time I _beat_ another Civ to one of them. Bwahaha! (Favourite wonders include the Great Wall, Leonardo's Workshop, and the Lighthouse, to give you an idea of what I like.)
[/B]

This comment jumped out at me. The fact that you are prioritizing all these wonders says you are all over the map as far as your research goes. If you are playing peacefully, (or even if you are not ) you don't need the GW. Lighthouse is useful and underrated, but not usually a wonder that people prioritize unless faced with a small island start. You should set your technological priorities and push hard toward those goals, then come back and fill in the gaps as needed. You may have noticed that every tech you learn makes it take longer to learn the next one, so the more "off-path" techs you acquire, it takes much longer to reach your real goals. You need to make choices and then follow through on them as much as possible. If you want to get out of despotism, research Alphabet, Code of laws, Ceremonial Burial and Monarchy as soon as they are offered. Don't spend much time in masonry or pottery as these


What's interesting is that most of what you describe is what makes the game easier - Peace, science, democracies. Most people who try to move up in difficulty often have to unlearn bad habits of prolonged monarchy, careless warmongering and such. (Yes, I realize some people can be very successful doing this even at high levels, but I don't think it's not the most straightforward recipe for success.) You don't seem to have these problems, so you're half way there already.

The things to add to that equation are Trade, Diplomacy, the Super Science City, and early expansion

I know those first camels seem to take forever, and sometimes they don't reach their destination, but establishing trade is the key to unlocking the game. When delivering trade you get the "bonus" payment in gold, plus you get an equal number of beakers added to your research. This can be a huge boost in staying ahead in technology. Furthermore you get the extra trade in your cities for the ongoing trade routes. This extra trade gives you better research, more gold, and eventually lets you lower your luxury rates. The routes may not seem consequential at first, but as your cities grow the routes become more and more valuable. A trade route is often as valuable as most city improvements.

If you really are staying peaceful, you can use diplomacy to your favor. Talk to the other civs - gain alliances and they may give you gifts of gold or technology. Exchange technologies with other civs. If you work collaboratively with the other civs, you can advance up the tech tree much quicker than you can doing all the research yourself.

The biggest way to success is to develop a Super Science City. This is a high trade city (preferably with several trade specials and/or River squares) that becomes the focus of your civ. In that city you prioritize all the 1 city trade and science wonders: Colossus, Copernicus' Observatory, Newton's college - and build all the relevant science improvments (Library, Unversity, research lab) plus enough other improvments to keep it happy (market place, bank etc.) as needed. Don't forget trade routes to this city to maximize it's trade production. These cities can ultimately produce hundreds or even thousands of science beakers each turn, driving your technological advancement far beyond that of the AI, pushing you to a spaceship launch.

Early expansion helps fuel your empire, so if you can get more cities down early you get more trade production, more shield production and so on. I often have several cities in place before I even have the technologies to build granaries and walls. Furthermore, I almost never build either because (a) granaries allow cities to grow too fast at higher levels where happiness is a major issue (b) the AI is often times too inept to mount a major offensive that requires walls for defense (especially if you're playing peaceful). The best defense is usually to have a few fast moving (2 move) high attack units available to counterattack any AI/barbarian offensive. Get those settlers out early and often, then come back to fill out your cities later.

Most of all, constantly challenge yourself. Once you beat a level, move up to the next one even if you just barely eeked out a win. You'll be surprised how well you can do. Good luck!

 

[funxus]

I too like the big prosperous cities part, and I seldom war much before I have the modern techs. As mentioned, a Super Science City (SSC) is probably the easiest way to get a head start in science, and have a better chance at new wonders. Prioritize tech wise and avoid the ones you don't need as long as you can.

Your first priority probably should be monarchy, because that's the easiest gov to expand in early on. Settlers only eat one food, less corruption than despotism, first 3 units don't require support...

Try getting Hanging Gardens in your SSC, and when in Republic or Democracy, celebrate your cities for growth (read about it in War Academy).

Don't be afraid to give in to AI demands if they have the upper hand, I find it's usually worth it if I risk losing a city/colony. Try to even gift the AI techs to make them happier.

Incremental rush buying: If you want to buy an elephant, it's cheaper to buy a warrior, switch to a phalanx and buy it, switch to an archer and buy it, and then switch to elephant and buy it, than buying the whole elephant. If you've started building something it's half the price compared to buying something from scratch also.

If you have the money, you can bribe cities (and units, like barbs) and still play peacefully.

 

[Old n Slow]

Scheherezade

Some great advice above, so I'll only add a little.

It makes little difference which civ you play & which are in the game -- differences +/-10% or so, but some will offer great pressure on wonder building, others in the tech race, others with early military adventures. Details another time, but the basics are more urgent.

1) First city -- At Warlord or even Prince level you should see plenty of grass -- go ahead & pop a hut if you see it, otherwise found your first city in a turn or two -- won't make too much of a difference (later, other ideas may be considered for delaying the founding.)

Make a warrior (only ten shields -- the faster to get a searcher out the door). This warrior goes out to look around. Next build -- a settler. (Yup that's right, no defender (yet)). After a turn or two into the Settler production click open the window & note the four - six shields towards the production. Click to changes this back to a warrior, click to buy it, then click back to the settler -- welcome to incremental rush buying. For a paltry few coins, you have put your next city a couple of turns ahead of the world.

When your settler is complete, have him step on to a grassland space with the "shield" on it and press R for road. Two turns later, the red X will be a road (which is now an improved space for trade purposes). Next move the settler another couple of spaces & found your second city.

Meanwhile your first city builds a second settler. Your second city should build a warrior followed by a settler. After the corresponding turns, you should have your two new settlers found two more cities. One of the cities should be in a "very" nice location -- have that city start a wonder (say Colossus). The other three cities should be building units -- at least two settlers & probably a military unit (might be a horse or an archer by now.) Your two searchers may have found $$, a nomad, etc. so no advice about that stuff yet.

With the two new settlers (five & six), I'll start roading more intensively -- often keeping one for irrigation around the SSC. This slows the extensive nature of growth, but offers a more intensive growth potential. Also having roads will speed up any need to move units. Try to keep a few cities making settlers (change them around so it is not always the same cities -- "share the food support") -- growth is good.

After you found your fourth city -- check the demographics -- being first in population is great -- it should be a priority to stay there.

2) Techs -- Monarchy is a great first goal -- Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Monarchy. If the tech tree doesn't offer one of these, go for Bronze Working or Writing (both necessary for near tern future goals). After Monarchy, revolt to the improved government.

Second goal -- Philosophy (Writing, Mysticism, Literacy) which gives a free tech, and then Third goal, Trade (Bronze Working, Currency), and then Republic. Soon after comes Astronomy (for Cope’s), Medicine (For Shakes -- see the notes elsewhere about the SSC), Monotheism (Mike’s), Engineering, Invention (Leo’s), and Navigation (Magellan’s).

Along the way the city making the Colossus should be finished -- have this city make (buy) a Market, Library & Temple. Let’s keep this city large & happy -- it will be your super science city. After the three infrastructure improvements, it should build your next wonder perhaps Hanging Gardens, maybe Marco Polo’s.

3) Also by now you should have 8-10 cities -- if you are on a continent with another civ, you’ll need to make a couple of key decisions -- the most important being where to set your defensible border. (This is where those early warriors might make a difference -- they might pop a couple of extra huts by being somewhere first, and if need be can fortify on a hill.) In fact I’ll often plant city #3 or 4 on an isthmus if it lies between the ai & me -- and let that be the border until late mid-game.

I remember one game where I sent two warriors and two vet phalanxes walking (slowly) many turns to relieve my nervous warrior the first settler started a mine on a hill, then next turn the second settler founded my border city. -- Built a barracks, some more vet units, and finally city walls, but didn’t attack until much later in the game. After a while the city was a regular camel maker for wonders even though the ai was at war -- as for me I basically ignored him.

Second decision is a question of room. Will you have enough space for 10-30 cities within your defensible borders? If not, are there some islands to make up for that? If not you may be forced to consider an early territorial acquisition program -- I find that I have to do so in about once every ten games or so.

4) Early mid game should see you behind defensible borders, most of the cities making camels for trade, maybe a couple of cities making settlers for expansion. One city (the SSC) has all the nice infrastructure and the remaining cities may have none, maybe a temple (at Warlord/Prince you can get to size 8 and not need much). The time should be +/- 1AD, you should have 8-12+cities and a few wonders. Two goals in mind are: growth the SSC to size 20 or so and consider growing the rest of your cities. Set your luxuries up a few notches, maybe 30 or 40%. Make sure that the SSC has the Aqueduct (to grow to size 12, sewer beyond), preferably Shakespeare’s Theatre, Market (and possibly a bank). For the rest of the civ, Mike’s, temples, markets, and aqueducts should get you to size 12 for the remaining cities (good enough for now) -- might as well add libraries -- but that should be it for infrastructure for a while -- then back to building camels.

5) Tim talked about trade -- (rush those camels) send them as far as safely possible to markets that demand the goods. for those camels that are not demanded anywhere, send them to the SSC (until your cities all have 3 routes each.) then make more. If you are able to send demanded goods to distant foreign markets, a couple of camels may net enough coins & beakers to generate a tech per turn -- and once you achieve that I expect that you’ll be hooked on this aspect of play for a while… a long while.

Try a game or two & see if this works -- then crank it up to King level.

 

[ElephantU]

You've got the willingness to ask the right questions; do you have the diligence to research, learn, change your playing styles, and experiment?

Have you ever "drunk from a firehose"? Read Solo's Early Landing Strategy Guide:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82209

There's a lot in there, but it focuses on what you are interested it: early growth, fast research, and keeping out of trouble with the AI. Solo dwells mostly on the "lean Republic" strategy; a revision of the Guide is coming soon that expands on "fatter empires" of more and bigger cities.

In reading your intro, it seems you are not as focused as you should be on a particular "critical path" to your goal of the Space Ship. As Tim commented, the Wonders you listed are all unnecessary for lift-off, provided you change one of your "Don't Likes": giving in to AI demands. Sure, it feels good to say "I'm not going to take that attitude from you guys", but remember: this is a machine talking to you, not Kim Il Jong. If your goal is an early liftoff you need to learn to "work with" the AI civs, ignoring their bluster while you use what you can get out of them. The biggest Super Science City trade routes come about by encouraging a big AI city near your SSC with an alliance and a "special path" RailRoad route. Building Marco Polo as your first Wonder and trading techs for peace and maps will allow you to plan routes for ocean trade exchanges that will get your civ off to an accelerated start. Learning how to ship-chain a new caravan or freight for same-turn delivery will allow you to get one or two techs per turn. Making things happen quickly takes discarding old habits for new, faster techniques.

Each of these techniques is discussed in many different threads throughout CFC; it is up to you to find them and put them into your play. One good way to start is to follow or join the Game Of The Month or the Diplomacy Game. Read the action logs and ask questions of why someone did something or how something was done. Try to "play along" and see how others advanced their empires. A thread you should try reading from start to finish, despite its length, is the "Brand New Grandma" thread in General Discussions. A lot of the basics are carefully explained to a new player willing to ask "dumb" questions.

Your "random" questions:
1. Does not matter which civ you play, except that there is always a particular order in which they cycle, with White first and Purple last. If you chose "Random" when you set up a new game, the game engine places the White civ on the map first, usually in the best location (at least, by its own arcane "location quality calculator"), and tries to compensate later civs with an extra settler or free/starter techs for worse starting locations. Also, if two civs are due to arrive at AC on the same turn, the earlier one in the cycle will arrive first.
2. For a shot at a really fast spaceship you have to throw caution to the winds. If you have done your exploring fairly well (all around, not just in one direction) you should have some warning time before the AI or the Barbs get to your doorsteps. Even then, sometimes letting them take a city and then buying it back can be profitable (especially if it is the Barbs). Solo is famous for his completely undefended empires (he "defends" with caravans!); consider experimenting with just a single Warrior per city for starters, upgrading to a Phalanx if the city is particularly vulnerable. Pour your efforts into building Settlers instead, and do not move them too far before planting new cities. Your goal should be a tight mass of 4-6 cities by 2000BC, which should also be around when you switch to an improved government (usually Monarchy).
3. Incremental RushBuying is simply "buying" shields one row at a time. If the production box is empty things cost a lot more. Let your city put one round of shields in the box, then switch to any unit that has just that one row and buy the rest of the row. If you want a different unit that turn, switch to a unit that has one more row of shields and RushBuy it, than another one with one more. Each full row you buy costs 25 gold; a partial row, like 5 shields, costs less per shield. This only works with units; city improvements cost 2x the remaining shields if there are any shields in the box, and 4x if the box is empty, while Wonders and SpaceShip parts are double that.
4. I've got no idea... but I suggest you spend more time reading threads and planning your civ growth and less time looking at the throne room...

Ignore anyone who tells you that you are asking a "dumb question" - we all had to learn the same way. If you want a great example of that, read the "New Grandma" thread!

 

[Scheherezade]

Well, I _don't_ "look at the throne room", it's just that I've always randomly wondered WHAT makes them upgrade it, is all...going back to when I played the original version of Civ 2 long ago...(I may have also played the original version of Civ 1 before that, too...I can't remember. It was on my brother's computer not mine, and he sometimes just showed me games he liked without bothering to say their names. )
Anyway, the "upgrade" question was just out of random curiosity, _sheesh_. It's not like I OBSESS over it or anything...

Wow, a LOT of stuff for me to remember here. Much of it has to do with aspects of the game that I never really researched because I didn't understand them/didn't know they were there. (Like changing the city that units come from, for example, in addition to the "incremental rush-buying" thing.)

The Wonders I listed as being among my favourites I _did_ list for reasons...Leonardo's Workshop upgrades stuff instantly and for free which is a _real_ lifesaver (for me anyway), the Lighthouse makes it so that triremes can go faster and I often find myself needing to get to other continents and _soon_, before other Civs do, or else I'm in trouble and can't expand any farther...and as for the Great Wall? I don't start wars with THEM, usually, but they have a tendency to start wars with ME after a while. I'll _trade_ stuff but I don't give in to demands. And no, it's not an ego thing, I mean I KNOW I'm playing against a machine, duh. It's a _strategic_ thing. When they demand money...well, usually I'm poor and don't HAVE that much.
And as for not giving away technologies--technologies are IT. Them and cities--_land_--are THE most valuable and strategic resource in the game, in my opinion. Giving your enemies valuable knowledge for free is to give them a big leg (or _more_ of one) up on YOU, for free. I might consider giving something to a _friend_, willingly, as a gift. But not forced out of me. Try to force it out of me and...well, you'll be picking the remnants of my Civ out of the ground in a few hundred years, but BEFORE then, I'll whomp you as hard as I can. Anyway, knowledge and land are the two things I really really REALLY try not to give away. They are sooooo valuable. Money, maybe, maps, sure, maybe luxury goods, but not tech.

Now, as for the techs...heh...I'll admit, this is my own fault in a large way...because I don't usually remember to even _get out_ the tech tree chart and look at it. I kind of have this goal to get ALL the technologies (except the useless Future ones, unless I happen to have time at the end) and build ALL the Wonders, or at least as many as possible. I don't really go for that last bit very _often_, mind you (I only actually built EVERY Wonder once, and that was on Call to Power, when I played as Scheherezade--hence my name here) but I do still have this thing for at least trying to get all the really _good_ ones, whether they are on a specific "path" or not. I know, I know, it's wrong, and I'm messing myself up...I'm sorry...(hangs head in shame).

But I just LIKE having free upgrades, making it so that I don't have to build granaries or barracks for a while, having triremes that can move around enough to actually be pretty useful, and making it so that they can't wage war on me, even for a bit. I know, I know....it's not efficient. But...(shrugs)

You see, the main problem is: I play to PLAY. To have fun. It's just that I _always_ get my butt kicked when I try this, and so now I'm trying to learn how to play somewhat better. You guys are all super-experts who can win the game on Deity; but I'm just trying to figure out how to win it on _Chieftain_, for now. Once I've actually WON it once and have figured out how, it'll get easier for me and, eventually this really scientific, "statistic-y" way you guys play will _become_ easy enough to me to feel natural, and then I WILL be able to play the way you guys do and still have FUN. But not just yet. It'll take a while. Don't rush me. You won't make a flabby 98-pound weakling into a heavyweight champion in ONE training session--let me just play around in the minor leagues first.

As for improvements and stuff: I always try to make a granary, because my cities often have problems with starving, especially at the beginning. _Especially_ if I try to make them crank out another Settler shortly after the city itself has just formed. I don't know if walls really do me any good or not, but I figure, with my luck, I need all the help I can get...but I guess I can phase those out. What about marketplaces? I usually need those, because of money problems. More money means I can rush-buy units that I _really_ need faster, too, so...

About roads: Should I make roads all OVER the place, criss-crossing ones on squares that don't really lead to anywhere, the way the AI does...or just make roads _to_ and between each city? That's the way I usually do it--yes, barbarians and the enemy can mess up my routes pretty easily if they want to, BUT, every time spent making roads that I don't really need right then, is time that _could_ have been spent making farms, mines, fortresses, or maybe cleaning up pollution (later on. Although I go for recyclying plants, mass transit, etc. as soon as possible so that pollution will no longer be a problem. I COULD just turn pollution off, but I want this to be a bit more like real-life Earth, so...)

Oh, and what about barracks? Sure, it makes it so that you take longer to make your first units, but I figure it's best to take the extra time and have units that are _better_ at defending your cities, than to _waste_ time making units that aren't that good. Better to pay more for higher quality is what I'm saying, I guess. Are barracks any good, or not? In your opinions.

For garrisons _in_ cities, as opposed to armies I might be attacking the enemy with: Should they have high _defense_, or high _attack_? (If a good one with BOTH isn't available yet.) I'd say defense, but...?

And what are your favourite kinds of ships, for naval attacks? Normally I use my ships for exploration and only bomb cities every now and then for the heck of it, but I may try to expand out onto the waves and "RULE THE SEAS!" one of these days...don't expect anything _soon_, though, 'cos I already have a LOT to remember with regards to land stuff!

I sure wish there was a better way to just SEE what's going on. I often find out that the enemy has made entire _cities_ right next to mine, poaching on their farmland (grr!)...and...and...and...I never even SAW their _settlers_ coming in! How do they _do_ that, right under my nose...?

Well, anyway, thanks for all your help, guys, even if it's going to take me a VERY long time to learn...and even if parts of it just aren't me (sorry, but I can't see where giving techs to _enemies_ is going to make them think anything about me other than "these people can be easily pushed around; let's try stomping one of their cities next turn and see what happens." Maybe I'd try it with a _friend_...)
I promise I will try to:

--Check the Tech Tree chart more often and go for things straighter towards my goal--although I can't promise I won't also get really "basic" things like Pottery and Masonry first, before I force myself onto the path...

--Expand faster..

--Build only Wonders that I REALLY need...

--Make more and better use of caravans/freights...

--Make more roads?

--Attempt to make a _proper_ Super Science City (I always end up with one really great city that has high production so THEY'RE the one who makes most of my Wonders, but it just happens, I'm not really _strategic_ about it..._yet_.)

--And _try_ to have better relationships with the neighbors, though I can't promise anything, especially if they keep playing their heavy metal music and smoking right outside my window in the middle of the night, and letting their dog do its business in my yard.

But anyway, thanks, guys!

...Notorious

 

[ElephantU]

Wow - a lot there, and a little disjointed, but at least you are listening...

You asked for advice on being more efficient and keeping the AI from killing you. For the first you need to work on the techs you choose to research and the things you choose to build. For the second you can go one of two ways: stomp on them or appease them. For any of these things, planning ahead is critical. "Failing to plan is planning to fail". Before you plant your first city, have some idea of the terrain you want around it and what you want it to do. Before the research selection screen pops up, have some idea of what your short-term goal is: better government? a particular Wonder? ships and maps? a better fighting unit? Try not to research and build randomly, and try to defer researching or building until just before you need something.

For example, you ask about Marketplaces. Yes, they multiply the taxes you can collect (and also the luxuries that help unhappiness), but that really depends on having some Trade in your cities and your Tax/Sci/Lux ratios. If your city is small you may only have a couple of Trade arrows. This is not a good time to be building a Marketplace. If your TSL ratio is only 30% tax you need at least 6 arrows before you get any more gold out of the Marketplace, and each turn it is eating up one gold in maintenence costs.

A couple different ways we could do this. Old n Slow started listing his opening strategies. You could just start a new game and ask questions as they come up. Do you know how to upload games and snapshots of the screen? And have you ever kept a "log" of your moves? Another idea would be to join the Game Of The Month, but #35 right now is at Emperor level which might be a bit ahead of you (how are you with unhappiness?). What we did with Grandma was more of the Question-Answer thing, but if you can upload we could download and offer suggestions.

Improvements: If your city is founded on Grass you will have 2 surplus food every turn. In Despo or Monarchy a Settler will eat one, but you don't want to keep Settlers around very long early in the game. At the beginning move them directly to a decent city site and found immediately. Don't even stop to lay a road. Getting that second city started will add more production and trade to your empire than the road will. Dont make ANY improvements in your city at the beginning, and dont research Pottery early. Your first goal should be a better government, Monarchy, which will give you more free supported units per city and extra production and trade from your cities. At higher levels of difficulty you will be needing Temples, but that is really only necessary when you are ready to switch from Monarchy to Republic. Martial law (keeping a defender in each city to quell unhappiness) will suffice before then.

Roads: Dont road at the beginning. The only place worth roading early on is a shielded grass tile that is being worked by a city, in order to get an extra Trade arrow, but at first getting more cities is a better strategy than that. Once you have 4-6 cities close together, have a new settler build a road between them on his way out to found another city. The idea is to allow one defender to "cover" several cities at once, so you build less defenders and more settlers. Later on you will build more roads, both for trade within the city area and for connections to AI cities for quicker caravan deliveries (if they are on your continent). And skip the Barracks at the beginning. That is for when you are planning a war: always attack with Vet units if possible.

At the beginning I like to explore and garrison with Warriors: they are cheapest, so they are quickest to build, you dont lose much if they are killed, but they are still decent if you never allow yourself to be attacked in "open" terrain (Grass, Plains, Tundra). Did you know that Barbarians will not "spawn" spontaneously for the first 16 turns? Don't worry about Barbs early on, and one of the goals of moving that first Warrior out to explore is to find out if any AI civs are close by. If you play Medium or Large maps the chances of near neighbors is low.

Ships: Early shipping is just good enough to explore and move your Settlers, Diplomats and cheap military units to colonization sites. Try to avoid naval battle early on. The Ironclad is the first decent attacking ship, especially if you have Lighthouse and Magellans, but that kind of situation should really be dictated by a map that has lots of seas and little land. Dont explore too much early on, so that your ships are close enough to move units back and forth. One of the best uses of ships in early games is taking a caravan and a diplomat out hunting for huts and AI civs.

Exploration is the key to knowing what is going on around you. When one of your "military" units enters a tile the game sets a "flag" internally that you were the last civ to visit that tile. When Barbs or another civ enters that tile, you will see them if you have the Option set for "Seeing enemy moves" (and if you pay attention between your turns). If another civ enters the tile the "flag" is set to them, so if you want to know about a particular place like a choke-point you need to revisit it after they leave.

BTW, what "version" of Civ2 are you playing? The two main ones are "Classic"/2.42 and Multi Player Gold Edition. The former is much easier to deal with the AI.

Regarding the Super Science City, have you ever noticed that there is a "sweet spot" between "special" terrain tiles where a city can have three or even four "specials" within its city radius? The basic idea is to find 3-4 "specials" that give a lot of Trade arrows and plant a city, ideally on Grass. Also, once you discover Trade you can build caravans to set up trade routes. You can also "deliver" them to your SSC when it is building a Wonder and the full shield value will be contributed, instead of the half you get when you disband any other unit in a city. This is how you build Wonders fast in cities that do not have high production: build caravans in other cities and move them to the SSC, then start a Wonder in the SSC and "deliver" enough caravans to fill the box.

Regarding tech trades and gifts, there is a special relationship called the KeyCiv where giving away techs will LOWER the "cost" of researching the next tech. You can read about that, and MUCH more, here at the "Great Library" of Apolyton.Net:

http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/glindex2.htm

Check it out!

 

[Old n Slow]

ElephantU & TimtheEnchanter are two of my favorite advice givers -- so I read their posts for information as well as entertainment. There are others as well & one can search for detailed information with a key word or two -- check out the site for additional gems of value.

Many of the questions are not actually “what” but better thought of as “when”. The first two boats, triremes and caravels are kind of soft, so I’m hesitant to use them in any kind of naval action -- they are much more valuable carrying troops & cargo and searching the unknown. Latter in the game, I may use a boat or two for military action, but usually I'll have a couple of destroyers searching around and that will be it.

When (and how much) to road? I’d say that the first four-six settlers should become cities as soon as possible (although I try to have a useful square to work for each city as well). I’m a little sloppy and often road too much (such as the entire route on the way to planting the new city).

When to build white (infrastructure -- temples, markets, libraries, barracks) goods? The longer I’ve played this game the later & less I’ve built those items. Temples come first, usually when the city in question is supporting a couple of units and is approaching size 5 or 6. Markets come second, often just before Aqueducts when I’m in Republic or Democracy and have the luxuries cranked up to 30 or 40% and watching the “We Love the Counsel Day (WLtCD)” raise the population. The SSC gets all the nice infrastructure and the rest of the cities are cranking out settlers or camels for trade & wonders -- so there is little time nor need for them to build infrastructure. Final note about “building” these items: consider buying them -- allow one turn’s worth of shields to settle in the box, them spend coins to buy the rest.

Once you have Mike’s Chapel, consider building Aqueducts & growing a number of cities via WLtCD to size 12 -- maybe build banks for that as well. As for the other white goods you’ve mentioned:

Barracks? Maybe one in ten games I’ll buy an early barracks. In many late games, I’ll often finish before Sun Tsu runs out & not buy Barracks at all. In many games, I’m growing an empire & banking for success by trading, so I’m hesitant to spoil relations with my “friends” and customers & don’t have much of a military activity at all -- no Sun Tsu, no Barracks, no enemies, no problems. For those conquering situations, I’ll have one Barracks per continent (connected by rail during the late game to heal wounded units.)

City Walls? Maybe one in ten games I’ll be at an interim point where I intend to go no further with military action -- so a city will erect city walls & be the barrier. This means that the in majority of my games, no cities have walls at all.

Court houses? Used to build ‘em all the time, often before markets. Nowadays, I don’t build them at all. I’m switching governments less often (used to be 6-7 governments per game now I’m down to 3-5.)

Libraries? It is hard to set aside resources to build/buy libraries when I’m getting a tech per turn via trade (usually by mid game with a boat chain in place.) I sometimes put banks and sewers in before libraries, and at that latter stage of the game, why bother? A couple of great players somehow stick them in there somehow & are getting two techs per turn in those late stages, but I seem to be just a little careless. For me, this is one of the difficult calls -- the money that rushes a library could also rush a camel -- and that camel could bring in a boatload of cash and beakers -- so it gets that call every time. Lesser camels go to wonders & I often am getting techs fast enough via trade that I don’t build all the wonders I want as soon as I want.

Harbors? 90% of my cities are ports (hey I want to use ALL the spaces -- therefore using water is important.) Harbors go in with the same priority as temples.

Granaries? Nope, never use them -- not even when I don’t have the Pyramids. If I need a city (Read SSC) to grow to size 3 ASAP, it gets started with 3 settlers joining together. once at size 3, it can grow +1 per turn when the luxuries (and later the markets and trade routes) are in place.

 

[Scheherezade]

Whoah...lotta stuff here. I don't think I'll be able to remember/use it all in the same game, at least not for a while anyway, but it _is_ useful just the same. Thanks for being willing to help, guys. It's refreshing to see a forum where everybody leaps in to _help_ a newbie...rather than jumping on them and being nasty simply because they ARE new, and ask the same questions everybody always asks. And yes, I _have_ seen forums like that...

I'm not sure of the exact number of my version of Civ 2, but 2.42 sounds about right from the ones you said. I know it's not any kind of multiplayer and it doesn't say "gold", but it's NOT the "classic", as it has the human-actor advisors and you upgrade the throne room instead of the palace. The original was on floppies instead of CD-ROMs, had no voices, no fancy animations, and looked way more like Civ 1. I know, I've played it. So it's definitely not the Classic.

Trade, trade, trade is the key...but what if the enemy civs are really far away from me? What if I've got the whole continent to myself, don't have any sea-going technologies yet, and am SO low on money that I have to pump practically _everything_ into taxes...and I'm STILL _losing_ money every turn? Lots of it. What do I do then? Trade would solve all of my problems, but I have no means of getting the camels over TO anybody else, because I don't yet have any boats and if I raised science enough to get the naval technologies more quickly, I would lose money SO fast that _all_ my improvements would be sold and I'd also start losing units so that barbarians could wipe me out with the greatest of ease. You see the problem--it's a vicious circle. Everything is stopping everything else from moving forward.

As for all this talk about using luxuries...OY, I _never_ have enough money to have _any_ luxuries at all! I'm lucky if I can keep my head above water financially while also making science _crawl_ forwards at all, usually. Money is a major, major, major, major, major, major, MAJOR problem for me. 30 or 40% Lux? Oh, how I'd LOVE to be able to afford that! Not gonna happen, though.
So anyway...what do I do when I desperately need Trade, but getting the camels _to_ anybody would cost more money than I have? (I.e., if I made a ship, it would be instantly wasted because "Tokyo can't support caravel, unit disbanded" on the very next turn.) Do I send caravans among my own cities, even if there aren't any Wonders I'm currently working on, for them to help with? Does sending them among yourself do any real _good_? Well, okay, you can send goods, but the money you get is usually such a _tiny_ amount...

As for uploading saved games...I dunno about that, but I can take screenshots. I'd have to take LOTS to keep you guys up to date on everything I was doing _as_ I did it, though. Hmm...
I've never kept a "log", either.
It helps that Civ 2 is a "windowed" game--that is, it doesn't completely take over the screen, so, theoretically, I COULD go to websites _while_ playing, instead of having to save and quit every single time I wanted to ask something. I assume it would slow my computer/the game way down if I were to ever _try_ this, but at keast it's within the realm of possibility. Now, if I were to ask on this messageboard it'd take a while for people to answer me back, so maybe a chat room would work better...? I also have AIM although I practically _never_ use it.

Sorry, I'm not only bad at these games, but I'm new to the whole "Internet Civ Community", as well. So I don't know where all the websites are yet and stuff...

But at least I'm better than those who are REALLY bad at it. On this other messageboard, we got onto the subject of the Civ games, and some people were saying that they like them, but they tend to get wiped out by barbarians or whatever within only a few hundred years. So I showed them screenshots of my huge, (240+ in size), ultra-high-tech, disease-free, clean, 100% happiness cities on Call to Power...and then just as they were already _writhing_ in jealousy, I showed them my space-stations. Heh heh heh. But no, seriously, it also had the effect of making them want to play the game. "You can get SPACE-STATIONS? _REALLY_? _I_ want this game...!" Then the next day one of them found Call to Power for 5 bucks and bought it, when before he might not have. Bwahaha. (I've actually "sold" a LOT of different games, books, movies, etc. by telling people how great they are, over the years...)

It may be mean, but it's human nature--we feel better about our own lack of skills if we can point to somebody who's even WORSE at it. I may not _win_ all that often, and I tend to end with bad scores, but at least I have happy, fairly big, advanced cultures with nice big fancy cities, and I _usually_ make it to the end without actually dying. Could be worse.

But it could also be BETTER, which is, of course, why I started this thread and asked you guys for help.

...Notorious

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Scheherezade
Whoah...lotta stuff here. I don't think I'll be able to remember/use it all in the same game, at least not for a while anyway, but it _is_ useful just the same. Thanks for being willing to help, guys. It's refreshing to see a forum where everybody leaps in to _help_ a newbie...rather than jumping on them and being nasty simply because they ARE new, and ask the same questions everybody always asks. And yes, I _have_ seen forums like that...

Thanks. We really do try to behave.

Trade, trade, trade is the key...but what if the enemy civs are really far away from me? What if I've got the whole continent to myself, don't have any sea-going technologies yet, and am SO low on money that I have to pump practically _everything_ into taxes...and I'm STILL _losing_ money every turn? Lots of it. What do I do then? Trade would solve all of my problems, but I have no means of getting the camels over TO anybody else, because I don't yet have any boats and if I raised science enough to get the naval technologies more quickly, I would lose money SO fast that _all_ my improvements would be sold and I'd also start losing units so that barbarians could wipe me out with the greatest of ease. You see the problem--it's a vicious circle. Everything is stopping everything else from moving forward.

This is a sign that you probably have built more improvements in your cities than you can afford. Most improvements cost gold to maintain, and sometimes you have to wait until you can afford to pay maintenance on them before building them. Not to beat a dead horse, but this is part of the reason why you start out building more cities with less in them...As you get more cities, you get more trade, then as they grow, you can start to afford all the niceties in some of them. Rumor has it, Rome wasn't built in a day

Do I send caravans among my own cities, even if there aren't any Wonders I'm currently working on, for them to help with? Does sending them among yourself do any real _good_? Well, okay, you can send goods, but the money you get is usually such a _tiny_ amount...

Yep, The bonus money for internal trade goods deliveries is often very small. Some of the strategies (like the Early Landing guide that Elephant linked to) focus on getting big bonus deliveries to drive your gold and science. That's a very effective way of playing, but keep in mind that you also get an ongoing trade route in the sending and recieving city. These trade routes add trade arrows to your cities. Each city can have 3 routes, and as the cities involved in the route grow and develop more "natural" trade, the trade from the routes grows as well. It may not seem like much at first - often the route will produce only 1 extra arrow at first - but think about it, if you get 1 extra arrow in two cities, that's probably 1 gold and 1 beaker every turn until the end of the game! That's hundreds of gold, plus extra science that more than pays off by the end of the game. In reality, as the cities grow and work more trade, the routes will grow as well and provide 5, 10 or more arrows EACH even between moderate sized cities. One common strategy is to set up lots of trade routes from smaller cities to the SSC. Because the SSC is usaully the largest, most developed city, and because it emphasizes trade (and often has the colossus which also boosts trade), routes set up to this city are often very lucrative even from the smallest cities. These extra trade arrows will give you more gold to spend, more science to fuel your research, and (if your luxuries aren't at 0% ) will make more of your citizens happy so they can work more. This is the power of trade.

As for uploading saved games...I dunno about that, but I can take screenshots. I'd have to take LOTS to keep you guys up to date on everything I was doing _as_ I did it, though. Hmm...
I've never kept a "log", either.
It helps that Civ 2 is a "windowed" game--that is, it doesn't completely take over the screen, so, theoretically, I COULD go to websites _while_ playing, instead of having to save and quit every single time I wanted to ask something. I assume it would slow my computer/the game way down if I were to ever _try_ this, but at keast it's within the realm of possibility. Now, if I were to ask on this messageboard it'd take a while for people to answer me back, so maybe a chat room would work better...? I also have AIM although I practically _never_ use it.

Sorry, I'm not only bad at these games, but I'm new to the whole "Internet Civ Community", as well. So I don't know where all the websites are yet and stuff...

Don't know if there are enough of us around to sustain any sort of chatroom/help line. You're best resource is on these boards.

Easiest way to upload save files is to compress the file into a .ZIP file, then use the "Attach File" that shows up right below where you post your messages to this board. Usually someone can find time to load up the game periodically and give advice. Another, recommended option is to use the Upload servers...go down to the bottom of the page, click the "Upload File" link, and follow directions, then just put a link to the uploaded file in your post using the tags.

It may be mean, but it's human nature--we feel better about our own lack of skills if we can point to somebody who's even WORSE at it.

Why do you think I hang out on these boards and dish out advice??!?!

I may not _win_ all that often, and I tend to end with bad scores, but at least I have happy, fairly big, advanced cultures with nice big fancy cities, and I _usually_ make it to the end without actually dying. Could be worse.

But it could also be BETTER, which is, of course, why I started this thread and asked you guys for help.

...Notorious

Hey as long as you're having fun, do whatever you want...you're already ahead of most people. Good luck!

 

[la fayette]

Try to start a new game where you will refrain from building ANY improvement before 1AD.
After reading you, I suppose that you build too many improvements much too soon, and that's why you come across huge financial problems.

 

[ElephantU]

Another possibility: you are not encouraging your cities to produce trade arrows as much as food and production. When you plant a city, try to do it on grass or plains, with a rivered site preferred. If possible, site it so that your first worker can reach a Whale or Spice tile. As you expand try to put roads on the grass tiles your workers are using. If there is a hill with grapes (Wine) around, or some Gems or Spice, try to free up a worker to use them. They will increase the Base Trade of your city, which will increase caravan delivery bonuses and ongoing trade routes. When you deliver a caravan, temporarily shift your workers to the highest trade tiles just before delivery, then shift them back right afterwards. You will get bigger gold and beaker bonuses for the extra work.

 

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by la fayette
Try to start a new game where you will refrain from building ANY improvement before 1AD.

That's right.

In the beginning:
build new cities as fast as possible. Build settlers only (along with some exploring and defending units), found cities (they may be placed very closely - 2, max. 3 squares apart), also you should connect them by some roads.

When you have 10-15 cities, change your strategy, let cities grow and start to build caravans.

It's easy.

 

[Scheherezade]

They should be placed THAT close? Really?
I always thought having them encroach on each other's land was a _bad_ thing...

I do usually pick good starting tiles, too...I try to have it with at least a couple squares of irrigable land (grass), within a couple tiles of a river or other body of water, and with at least one good in the area, if at all possible. Like, for example, on this latest game I've been playing, I put it on Prince level and made the terrain real harsh for some reason (dunno, just the heck of it) yet my capital city is _still_ near a river and TWO things of gold. Not shabby. There's also furs and game and fish all over the place for my other towns to use, too.

Now, if you make roads from a good to the town, does that mean that that good is now...er, doing the town good? Like in Civ 3? ("Our workers have made a road to bring GEMS into Ankh-Morpork. This will make the citizens there HAPPY. Good work!") Or...what? What I mean is, if it has a direct effect on the trade, food, or production rates...can I actually _see_ the difference? I've been trying that, but so far I haven't noticed anything...

Also on this latest game, I've been making cities faster than normal, and I completely wiped out one Civ already by meeting them when they only had one city (Tenochitlan is now one of MY best ones, bwahaha). I haven't been putting them THAT close together, and they're not all connected by roads _yet_ (currently working on that) and I didn't refrain from making ANY improvements (they all have barracks and granaries at least; and the capital has a library and a marketplace too) but I've been cutting back on it pretty heavily from my usual playing style. You see, some of these bits of advice you gave me, I read AFTER I had already made about 15 cities with barracks and granaries so...

Anyway, I don't know if I'm going to win, but I am expanding much faster than I usually do, I guess that's a decent sign... (shrug)

...Notorious

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Scheherezade
Now, if you make roads from a good to the town, does that mean that that good is now...er, doing the town good? Like in Civ 3? ("Our workers have made a road to bring GEMS into Ankh-Morpork. This will make the citizens there HAPPY. Good work!") Or...what? What I mean is, if it has a direct effect on the trade, food, or production rates...can I actually _see_ the difference? I've been trying that, but so far I haven't noticed anything...

Nope. That's just a Civ3 thing. In civ 2 the key is where you place your citizens within the city to work the land. When you're in the city screen you can move your citizens to work on any of the 21 squares in your city limits. If you put the worker onto one of the squares with a special, you get extra...somthing...Some give extra food, some give extra sheilds, others give extra trade. Some give a combination. The system will put your workers on the highest food squares by default, so as your city adds new citizens you often want to move them to other squares depending on whether you want more sheild production or more trade production at that time.

However, if the special produces trade, then a road will add an additional trade arrow to the special. (This is similar to the benefit roads give on flat terrain and rivers). But even in that case, the road does not have to connect back to the city square...the tile just needs to be roaded.

 

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Scheherezade
They should be placed THAT close? Really?
I always thought having them encroach on each other's land was a _bad_ thing...

A moving Settler produces nothing, therefore it is good to convert him into a city as fast as possible.
The main reason why you should try to get cities large is that deliveries of caravans that were built in large cities bring about more gold and beakers. But in the beginning you cannot build caravans yet, and so you can keep cities at size 1-2. And such small cities may be placed very closely.

 

[ElephantU]

Early in the game waste and corruption multiply the further your new city is from the capital (by default, your first city). So if you spread out too much you will increase the waste. Keeping your early cities close together minimizes this problem. Some overlap of city squares is OK: you will probably not be able to get all of them up to size 15-20 anyway, so they wont have to worry about which one gets which tile. When you plant a city, look for the best three tiles at first, and make sure that it can expand to 8 tiles without overlapping another. Dont worry about beyond that, except for your SSC.

It sounds like you are still building way too many city improvements: a Granary in 15 cities is 15x60=900 shields, while the Pyramids (which gives you free Granaries in all cities, even new ones) is only 200 shields. Dont build Barracks until you expect a war with another civ, and then only in frontline and high-production cities. Libraries are good, as long as you have enough Trade arrows in the city to multiply, and your Tax/Sci/Lux rate is high. Marketplaces help a lot when you switch to Republic to multiply your Luxuries, but again only if you have Trade arrows to work with in each city.

Once you have gotten the first 6-10 cities down it is worth taking a "strategic" look around to make some short term goals. You should have switched out of Despotism into Monarchy, explored your home continent and built enough settlers to start thinking about improving some land and developing an SSC. It is also time to choose your first Wonder to focus work on, and if possible you should be trying to get Trade so you can build caravans to help with gold&beakers as well as speed Wonder building. Dont wait until 1AD (or 1000AD?) to take a look around and make some plans.

 

[geofelt]

For a peaceful builder, you cant beat the great-wall, the AI will leave you alone.
Get to monarchy asap. Try to build statue-of-liberty. You can then use democracy to grow and research, switching to fundamentalism to build infrastructure with little shield loss and earning lots of gold. If you don't need the gold, communism is almost as good with better science than monarchy. Try them both.
If you get attacked, use a dip and the gold to bribe ai cities.