Any guess on what will happen to Erdo-Turkey now that it downed a russian plane?

[red_elk]

^ About this video - the English translation I see there, is a bit more sensationalist than Russian original. Specifically, Putin didn't blame USA in intentional creating and supporting ISIS.

What he in fact says, is that USA actions in the region have been unprofessional, because they supplied arms to the people who declare themselves "freedom fighters", but in reality are mercenaries who fight for anybody paying money to them. And this in turn, lead to weapons and supplies leakage to internationally recognized terrorist organizations, such as Al-Nusra and ISIS. I think this is pretty much common knowledge at this moment and even USA tacitly recognized that their program for training "moderate opposition" fighters turned out to be major screw up.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

^ About this video - the English translation I see there, is a bit more sensationalist than Russian original. Specifically, Putin didn't blame USA in intentional creating and supporting ISIS.

What he in fact says, is that USA actions in the region have been unprofessional, because they supplied arms to the people who declare themselves "freedom fighters", but in reality are mercenaries who fight for anybody paying money to them. And this in turn, lead to weapons and supplies leakage to internationally recognized terrorist organizations, such as Al-Nusra and ISIS. I think this is pretty much common knowledge at this moment and even USA tacitly recognized that their program for training "moderate opposition" fighters turned out to be major screw up.

Thanx. According to the translation Putin says that the oil from ISIS controlled territory is bought by US allies while US only watches. Is that correct?

Btw, you realise that US has been training these mercenaries and sending them into Syria, right?

 

[red_elk]

Thanx. According to the translation Putin says that the oil from ISIS controlled territory is bought by US allies while US only watches. Is that correct?

Yes, the rest of the video translated imprecisely, but correctly in general sense.

Btw, you realise that US has been training these mercenaries and sending them into Syria, right?

I understand that, though I believe US government doesn't have intention to support ISIS. The cases when they indirectly supported it, can be explained by incompetence or corruption, rather than intended support.

From what I see, the US strategy in Syria seems to be non-pragmatical and ideology-driven. Their original strategy was promoting a "moderate" Sunni opposition and installing in Syria government friendly to their Middle Eastern allies. When it failed, they switched to support another player in the region, which appeared as "democratic", even though support of this player would obviously alienate one of US key allies in the region. I won't criticize them much for choosing such strategy though, because it's very beneficial for Russia.

Another thing to consider, is that Kurds won't be able to seize and control for a long time, areas populated by Arabs. So, putting bets on Kurds as a military force which can change the situation outside of Northern Syria, is shortsighted.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Any thoughts on the following?

Link to video.

 

[red_elk]

I'm not excluding the possibility that US intelligence might participate in ISIS creation - that would be not the first case when they create terrorist organization which eventually turns on them. But I very much doubt US government supports them now. That would be too much even for USA - to support organization when in the same time your army participate in fighting against it. Their Middle Eastern policy can be incompetent, but I don't think it's outright crazy.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I came across this interesting piece of old news regarding the accusations of Syrian government using chemical weapons against its people which served as a pretext for US to remove Syrian legitimate government:
Carla Del Ponte: "I was a little bit stupefied by the first indications we got... they were about the use of nerve gas by the opposition,"

Link to video.



Also interesting. CIA and US diplomants instrumental in delivering heavy weaponry from Lybia to fight legitimate government of Syria:
http://www.businessinsider.com/us-syria-heavy-weapons-jihadists-2012-10?IR=T

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

According to gen. Wesley Clark Syria was just one of seven countries on the list "to take down" then:

Link to video.

 

[Agent327]

^ About this video - the English translation I see there, is a bit more sensationalist than Russian original. Specifically, Putin didn't blame USA in intentional creating and supporting ISIS.

What he in fact says, is that USA actions in the region have been unprofessional, because they supplied arms to the people who declare themselves "freedom fighters", but in reality are mercenaries who fight for anybody paying money to them. And this in turn, lead to weapons and supplies leakage to internationally recognized terrorist organizations, such as Al-Nusra and ISIS. I think this is pretty much common knowledge at this moment and even USA tacitly recognized that their program for training "moderate opposition" fighters turned out to be major screw up.

So the video title is quite misleading. Also, the financing of 'freedom fighters' happened on two occasions: Afghanistan and Syria. IS was the result of discharging Iraqi soldiers without taking their guns, not of 'financing freedom fighters', as Iraq was already 'liberated' - even though nobody had asked for that. In Syria the US have been training opposition forces and supplying them. This may or may not have played some part in IS gaining control there, but in all this doesn't add up to 'the US created or financed IS'. Good to know Mr Putin is not arguing in such a simplistic manner.

Russia doesn't invoke anything. Turkey denied routine observation flight over its territory, according to agreement. One of the observation flights which regularly happen by schedule, over NATO countries and Russian territories.

You missed the point, no surprise there either: there's nothing routine about current very cold Russo-Turkish relations. Apparently that somehow slipped by some authorities in Russia. So it should also come as no surprise that such 'routine' flights aren't currently appreciated by Turkey, in the face of an unresolved diplomatic dispute - if we can call it that, since no actual diplomacy occurred.

It was reply to your statement that "no Russian bombings were reported in Eastern Syria". There are two possibilities - either Russian actions against IS are not reported in Dutch media, or you are not following news at all.

Out of context quoting, nice, but again no surprise here. Russian bombings on anti-Assad forces (and population) was what was being discussed. That Russia occasioally also bombs (or bombed) IS positions is not really relevant to proposed 'peace' negotiations, nor does it have any relation to why they are currently suspended.

 

[r16]

wesley Clark is not a reliable witness when it comes to US Conspiracy , actually being the guy that voted for the bombing of the Chinese Embassy , he basically acts as bait . So that he can be contacted while enabling discreet observation .

 

[Silurian]

I thought the US bombed the Chinese embassy because of the stealthy TV reception.

 

[r16]

the embassy was bombed because the bombing attacks on the Serbs were not achieving the desired results . Such an act contributes to foreign pressure on the fighters , nobody shall fight the WW III for them and they should placate the Americans .

 

[red_elk]

You missed the point, no surprise there either: there's nothing routine about current very cold Russo-Turkish relations.

I didn't say there's anything routine about Russo-Turkish relations. I said Russia didn't "invoke" (as you claimed) the Open Skies treaty, because flight was routine, scheduled. You made mistake and now trying to dodge the question.

That Russia occasioally also bombs (or bombed) IS positions is not really relevant to proposed 'peace' negotiations, nor does it have any relation to why they are currently suspended.

It has nothing to do with peace negotiations, I simply corrected another of your wrong claims - that Russia allegedly doesn't attack IS positions in Eastern Syria.

 

[Agent327]

First some actual news for people interested what happens when people fall into the hands of the Assad regime a follow up UN report:

Out of Sight, Out of Mind: Deaths in Detention in the Syrian Arab Republic

In the Syrian Arab Republic, massive and systematised violence - including the killing of detainees in official and makeshift detention centers - has taken place out of sight, far from the battlefield. This paper examines the killing of detainees between 10 March 2011 and 10 November 2015.

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoISyria/A-HRC-31-CRP1_en.pdf

For people more interested in a graphic depiction, a former Syrian policeman took a total of 55,000 photos: https://www.goalglobal.org/stories/...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Now to the chatter:

I didn't say there's anything routine about Russo-Turkish relations. I said Russia didn't "invoke" (as you claimed) the Open Skies treaty, because flight was routine, scheduled. You made mistake and now trying to dodge the question.

It seems to Russia is the one dodging questions by pretending there can presently be 'routine' flights. Which you apparently also don't quite grasp. In case you missed it a flight was shot down by Turkey. Russia was not happy. Russia was mad. Did it resort to diplomatic means to try and resolve the issue? No, it did not. It still hasn't.

So, in the current cold Russo-Turkish situation there can be no question of 'routine' flights. Which apparently is only not clear to Russia.

It has nothing to do with peace negotiations, I simply corrected another of your wrong claims - that Russia allegedly doesn't attack IS positions in Eastern Syria.

I didn't claim that. You quoted out of context to make it look like that. Not quite the same thing. But interesting diversion from the matter of suspended peace negotiations because of new Russo-Syrian offensives. And what such offensives will result in if successful you can read in the most recent report above.

 

[Kyriakos]

Another symposium, amirite

 

[red_elk]

It seems to Russia is the one dodging questions by pretending there can presently be 'routine' flights.

Which questions Russia is dodging and why there cannot be routine flights? Neither of two countries withdrew from the open skies treaty.

Did it resort to diplomatic means to try and resolve the issue? No, it did not. It still hasn't.

Trying diplomatic measures to resolve issue is precisely what Russia did. Was this also not reported in Dutch media, or you just denying reality as you usual?

I didn't claim that. You quoted out of context to make it look like that.

You said "IS operates in Eastern Syria. No Russian bombings reported there."
This is factually wrong. Russian bombings (of IS targets) were reported in Eastern Syria as well as in other parts of Syria. What is it you don't understand here?

 

[Agent327]

I see we like to argue. Unfortunately not about things that matter:

Which questions Russia is dodging and why there cannot be routine flights? Neither of two countries withdrew from the open skies treaty.

Yes, and? Did Turkey voluntarily 'withdraw' from trade with Russia?

Trying diplomatic measures to resolve issue is precisely what Russia did.

"Stab in the back", refusal to meet with PM Erdogan, economic sanctions, accusations of trade with IS. Diplomacy much?

You said "IS operates in Eastern Syria. No Russian bombings reported there."
This is factually wrong. Russian bombings (of IS targets) were reported in Eastern Syria as well as in other parts of Syria. What is it you don't understand here?

Are you familiar with the term cherry picking?

 

[red_elk]

Yes, and? Did Turkey voluntarily 'withdraw' from trade with Russia?

I asked why there can't be routine flights anymore? If Turkey didn't officially withdraw from open skies treaty.

"Stab in the back", refusal to meet with PM Erdogan, economic sanctions, accusations of trade with IS. Diplomacy much?

Right, diplomacy. Russia asked for official apologies and punishing those who were involved. Arresting the guy who killed the pilot, and committed war crime according to all international rules (and who was spotted in Turkey afterwards), would be a good start. Sanctions followed when Turkey did nothing of the sort.

Are you familiar with the term cherry picking?

Yes, I am. I actually cherry picked a few of your statements which are demonstrably wrong, and replied to them.

 

[Agent327]

No news from the front? Good.

I asked why there can't be routine flights anymore? If Turkey didn't officially withdraw from open skies treaty.

Answered.

Right, diplomacy. Russia asked for official apologies and punishing those who were involved. Arresting the guy who killed the pilot, and committed war crime according to all international rules (and who was spotted in Turkey afterwards), would be a good start. Sanctions followed when Turkey did nothing of the sort.

Interesting view, but as usual you left out the things I mentioned. Which is why I mentioned them. I must admit the 'war crime' accusation is rather original.

Yes, I am. I actually cherry picked a few of your statements which are demonstrably wrong, and replied to them.

So you do know what cherrypicking is. Good, then I won't have to explain it a third time. Now kindly stop doing it as it proves nothing besides you can cherry pick.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/66-cherry-picking (Just in case you didn't actually know what you are doing.)

 

[red_elk]

Answered.

And what was the answer?

Interesting view, but as usual you left out the things I mentioned. Which is why I mentioned them. I must admit the 'war crime' accusation is rather original.

I'm pretty sure that killing pilot was a war crime in that circumstances.

So you do know what cherrypicking is. Good, then I won't have to explain it a third time. Now kindly stop doing it as it proves nothing besides you can cherry pick.

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/66-cherry-picking (Just in case you didn't actually know what you are doing.)

That's very interesting, but do you admit your mistake about Russia not bombing ISIS targets in Eastern Syria or not?

 

[Agent327]

And what was the answer?

See thread.

I'm pretty sure that killing pilot was a war crime in that circumstances.

Fortunately your opinion doesn't matter much with regard to what is and is not a war crime:

https://www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/about the court/frequently asked questions/Pages/13.aspx

The pilot wasn't killed because his plane was hit; he was killed on the ground and that may very well be a war crime. But this does not relate to the incident that triggered Mr Putin 'diplomatic' rage vs Turkey. It wasn't Turkey that killed the downed pilot. It was Turkey that arranged for proper burial arrangements according to the Orthodox rite and the repatriation of the bodily remains. Turkey's PM also offered to open negotiations to try and resolve the matter diplomatically. Mr Putin simply rebuffed this overture, even though it was clear Mr Erdogan was embarassed by the incident. Next came the economic sanctions.

And now, all of a sudden (oh surprise), after all this negative attitude from Mr Putin, Turkey refuses to allow a 'routine' flight. A rather minor reaction from Turkey after all the negative sounds coming from Russia, I would say. Any normal person would understand that relations between Turkey and Russia need to relax quite a bit before anything 'routine' can occur. But apparently someone in Russia missed all the recent commotion over a shot down air plane. Which is comical, because the usual procedure seems to be to harp on about it indefinitely - even after forensic evidence has resolved the issue.

That's very interesting, but do you admit your mistake about Russia not bombing ISIS targets in Eastern Syria or not?

No. I'll simply ignore your straw man.

Let's revise the actual facts mentioned:

- Russo-Syrian offensives lead to suspension of proposed peace talks (confirmed by UN spokesperson)

- Russian bombings of civilian targets (confirmed by repeated reports, plus image footage available). And since you like war crimes, the latter definitely is one.

- another report of the Assad regime violating human rights.


On these you apparently have no comment, which is interesting enough, but instead you prefer to focus on irrelevant details. Interesting argumentation technique, but I doubt anyone will be convinced by it. Cherry picking and straw men are easily recognizable.