As one more note: don't be afraid to do some experimentation to find out which playstyle works best for you. I've found that in Sirian's games he often emphasizes base-building to a much larger extent than I would in similar circumstances. Sometimes this pays off for him, while at other times it's a serious drain on his economy, which might have been better served with another approach. So be flexible and don't get stuck thinking one path to success is always best!
Any hints for a newbie?
- Thread starter Rheinmetall
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As one more note: don't be afraid to do some experimentation to find out which playstyle works best for you. I've found that in Sirian's games he often emphasizes base-building to a much larger extent than I would in similar circumstances. Sometimes this pays off for him, while at other times it's a serious drain on his economy, which might have been better served with another approach. So be flexible and don't get stuck thinking one path to success is always best!
I agree with Zed-F. Always evaluate and reevaluate what you are doing. what ever you do not have to spend on one thing, is available for another. So if you can get by on fewer or no bases on some planets, that cost can be used to fun research or ships.
neutrino
Warlord
I think a good starting point with regards to planetary defense would be .... how much should be good enough to prevent enemy fleet from making cheap-shot attacks? Furthermore, to what extent my tech tree contribute to planetary defense? The last question is also important, because superior missiles and shields do not provide protection against bio-weapons -- AI races have absolutely no qualm about launching massive bio-attacks.
Also, planetary defenses are more worthwhile if you are in the upper-tier of tech/economy ranking (which usually means most enemy fleets lack adequate weapons to overcome your defenses), but less so if you are behind (which usually means one or more enemy fleets consider your planetary defense as not much more than a target practice).
Finally, planetary defense loses its strategic value if the game drags into high-tech arms race. Class XX shield cannot withstand Neutronium Bombs. Not to mention that Universal Antidote does not completely neutralize Bio Terminator. So, there is a diminishing return.
Also, planetary defenses are more worthwhile if you are in the upper-tier of tech/economy ranking (which usually means most enemy fleets lack adequate weapons to overcome your defenses), but less so if you are behind (which usually means one or more enemy fleets consider your planetary defense as not much more than a target practice).
Finally, planetary defense loses its strategic value if the game drags into high-tech arms race. Class XX shield cannot withstand Neutronium Bombs. Not to mention that Universal Antidote does not completely neutralize Bio Terminator. So, there is a diminishing return.
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
If I have tech parity, the missile bases are worth the effort?
malicious bloke
Warlord
yes, to a certain extent. And only if you have a decent planetary shield and (preferably) universal antidote.
RefSteel
Pacifistic Technologist
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2007
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I'm a bit newbish myself, so take my opinions with a grain or ten of salt, but I'd say overall tech parity (per the Staus graphs) isn't the best measuring stick. Getting a current tech report on your potential attackers (with a Hiding spy) and/or sending a ship with Battle Scanner to see what's on their fleet should tell you what kinds of weapons you'll be facing. The number of missile bases you need (or should bother) to build will vary with each game, and each era within a game, depending on how your missiles and shields stack up against your enemies' designs.
Case in point: My Bugs in Space game in the most recent Impossible challenge. Against Psilons with Megabolt cannons, my bases were quite valuable once I could arm them with Merculite Missiles, even though that tech was way behind the Psilons'. Against the Humans later in the game, facing fast ships and Hard Beams, the bases were almost defenseless ... but still packed a great punch when I could protect them with Repulsor ships. Still later, when the Humans brought Doom Virus and 2-space weapons to the table, my Repulsors and planetary shields became obsolete, but with bases in large numbers, upgraded with Stinger missiles, I was able to shred enemy ships before they could touch the planet. In all of these cases, I was well behind the AI on the tech graphs, too.
In short, I agree wholeheartedly with Zed and vmxa: There's no one "right" way to use missile bases ... or any other single aspect of the game. You have to adapt to each game situation, and experiment to see what tactics fit best with your overall playstyle. To me, that's one of the best things about the game.
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
I've actually faced a similar situation where I had to use repulsors to keep the enemy bombers away from my planets to give the missile bases time to do their trick. The humans had advanced bombs that levelled 20 bases just like that, however at the same time thier ships were vulnerable to my advanced missiles.
Yes late in the game, you will need to defend with ships as they can bust anything potentially. They can move much quicker acrossed the grid.
Bio attacks are a pain, that is why you want to treat them like bombers.
So in truth the missile bases defense is on a case by case basis. In some scenarios, it will be a lock and others it will be iffy and still in others it will not do anything.
Bio attacks are a pain, that is why you want to treat them like bombers.
So in truth the missile bases defense is on a case by case basis. In some scenarios, it will be a lock and others it will be iffy and still in others it will not do anything.
Sullla
Patrician Roman Dictator
That's really an excellent question, so let me chime in as well. As far as tech parity goes, once you really know the game inside and out, it becomes kind of a moot point. I once phrased it in this delicious tautology: "on Impossible, the game is essentially won if the player ever reaches tech parity (because you won't reach that point unless you know what you're doing, and if you know what you're doing, the AI won't beat you without a tech lead!)"
Missile bases are really designed to serve as a crutch to keep you in the game UNTIL you can reach tech parity. Honestly, 95% of the time on Impossible the AIs all have unbeatable fleets flying around in space, forcing me to huddle behind my bases for survival. The other 5% of the time, when I can actually fight them in space, simply consists of the endgame mopup. (Note: since space combat plays such a minor role in this game, it's a major reason why the Mrrshans are the worst race!)
I think of missile bases more as "OMG, the Alkari are attacking with ELEVEN THOUSAND SHIPS!" and I'd better pray that my bases can hold them off:
I hope that makes sense.
I build more bases than a lot of other players, although still well shy of Sirian-esque levels.
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
I've yet to reach the point where I can tackle impossible.
I tend to push very agressively on expansion, then setup a front line of worlds who's sole job is to be the border. I'll launch ground invasions to get my 4th colony just so that 4th colony will be a "border" world and let my homeworld be safe.
It's strange, but once I started agressively expanding and just really forcing the AI to fight on my terms I had a much better success rate in impossible. While they still have fleets I can't handle sometimes, it's far more likely that we'll have a standstill at "border world x" while the rest of my empire doesn't have to worry about them, which in turn means I can continue to expand/spy/research. Of course, this style of play has a downside - if I get a start with a radiated in my "core" and silicoids on the map, it's a pain. I've started to just gropo the coids early whenever they're in a game with me, as their early population growth really can't take the loss of colonists (especially if I spend to grow more) to try and compensate - it keeps things interesting.
It's strange, but once I started agressively expanding and just really forcing the AI to fight on my terms I had a much better success rate in impossible. While they still have fleets I can't handle sometimes, it's far more likely that we'll have a standstill at "border world x" while the rest of my empire doesn't have to worry about them, which in turn means I can continue to expand/spy/research. Of course, this style of play has a downside - if I get a start with a radiated in my "core" and silicoids on the map, it's a pain. I've started to just gropo the coids early whenever they're in a game with me, as their early population growth really can't take the loss of colonists (especially if I spend to grow more) to try and compensate - it keeps things interesting.
Mrshans use to fare poorly indeed, but they are a very weak race anyway (they negate alkari bonus, but that's about it...)
Missile bases are definitely worth it. They won't stop a determined large fleet (but these ones are easy to track), but gives a good support to defending ships, and prevent colonies from being bombed to dust by a tiny wandering strike forces.
Their being only invulnerable to most of the ennemy fleet (anything but the high end missile carriers and bombers, that is, until everyone starts fielding mauler devices/stellar converter, but it happens pretty late) can force huge fleets into retreat.
Even with the Alkari, I had to rely massively (I had about 150-600/border plante) on these (but it was late game in impossible, and the Psilons could reach most of my planets in 1 year travel time from their ones)
Missile bases are definitely worth it. They won't stop a determined large fleet (but these ones are easy to track), but gives a good support to defending ships, and prevent colonies from being bombed to dust by a tiny wandering strike forces.
Their being only invulnerable to most of the ennemy fleet (anything but the high end missile carriers and bombers, that is, until everyone starts fielding mauler devices/stellar converter, but it happens pretty late) can force huge fleets into retreat.
Even with the Alkari, I had to rely massively (I had about 150-600/border plante) on these (but it was late game in impossible, and the Psilons could reach most of my planets in 1 year travel time from their ones)
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
I seem to be having problems with my ship designs. Even if I have tech parity I can't seem to produce cost effective designs. I get kicked around by much larger AI fleets, even when I try to pick my fights carefully. I can't outproduce the AI so what would be the right way to approach this?
That depends on many things. What is the level? What point in the game are we talking about? How big is the map and how many planets do you have?
What kind of planets are they, big Ocean/Jungle/Terran or small hostile world not rich or ultra rich?
What races are you playing?
What kind of planets are they, big Ocean/Jungle/Terran or small hostile world not rich or ultra rich?
What races are you playing?
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
I've played just about any race. Level is average, sometimes hard. Medium map. I usually manage to secure my share of the planets. How much resources should I dedicate to my fleet and how should my fleet composition adapt to my available resources?
If you're playing on average, and you only have your fair share of the planets, then you are not expanding quickly enough. On average, it is generally trivially simple to get far more than your fair share of the planets, providing that you don't get totally screwed by the map generator.
My advice would be to expand as aggressively as possible. Let the AI tell you when you've expanded too far by taking over a couple of your outlying colonies. Colony ships are cheap to build and every world you can snatch away at the beginning of the game is one you don't have to conquer later.
Take a look at some of the succession games threads for tips on strategies/tactics to let you do that. Some things to think/read about are how to transfer pop around in your empire to encourage max pop growth early on, the best uses for poor and ultra-poor planets and for rich/ultra-rich planets, some of the important techs for early expansion and economic growth, and what techs you need in order to make long range colony ships.
My advice would be to expand as aggressively as possible. Let the AI tell you when you've expanded too far by taking over a couple of your outlying colonies. Colony ships are cheap to build and every world you can snatch away at the beginning of the game is one you don't have to conquer later.
Take a look at some of the succession games threads for tips on strategies/tactics to let you do that. Some things to think/read about are how to transfer pop around in your empire to encourage max pop growth early on, the best uses for poor and ultra-poor planets and for rich/ultra-rich planets, some of the important techs for early expansion and economic growth, and what techs you need in order to make long range colony ships.
Can you post a save as it is hard to use such broad terms and get any place. I do not remember avg level, but even at hard you should get your share. If you are not on the left of the election vote right away, you probably did not expand well enough in a decent map.
Another tip off is that you are at parity in tech. You should have more planets than them and more research and hence ahead. You can do that on that level without even trading.
If you have decent construction techs, you should be able to make better ships than they will. It then comes down to do your ship designs not match up with the job they are given.
IOW if the bugs are sending lots of small/tiny ships and you are using missile ships to kill them, it may not be the tech, it is just that missiles do not kill large numbers unless they are in large number.
If you face beamers with range 2 and repulsor, you need a counter and so forth.
Another tip off is that you are at parity in tech. You should have more planets than them and more research and hence ahead. You can do that on that level without even trading.
If you have decent construction techs, you should be able to make better ships than they will. It then comes down to do your ship designs not match up with the job they are given.
IOW if the bugs are sending lots of small/tiny ships and you are using missile ships to kill them, it may not be the tech, it is just that missiles do not kill large numbers unless they are in large number.
If you face beamers with range 2 and repulsor, you need a counter and so forth.
Rheinmetall
Interplanetary Assassin
So you're saying I should use missileboats against large ships? What I really need I guess is more play experience.
Regular missles such as Hyper-X have real difficulty against swarms of tiny ships. Each tiny ship absorbs one missile, even if it only has 3 hp and the missile hits for 30. On the other hand, Scatter Pack missiles are very efficient against swarms.
In turn, scatter packs are very inefficient against high level shields (planets, larger ships) while normal missiles are generally some of the most efficient (only surpassed by bombs).
There's a very nice not-quite hard counter philosophy to the various techs.
In turn, scatter packs are very inefficient against high level shields (planets, larger ships) while normal missiles are generally some of the most efficient (only surpassed by bombs).
There's a very nice not-quite hard counter philosophy to the various techs.
What I am saying is you have to evaluate the task and design a ship to deal with it. Experience is of course the thing that helps you make the proper choice.
You cannot make the proper choice, however, if you have not been able to get a good empire going. At average level that should not be a problem.
So to see if you are not getting the empire up to snuff or just not making useful design, we need to see a save. Post one where you were first running into problems with combat.
You cannot make the proper choice, however, if you have not been able to get a good empire going. At average level that should not be a problem.
So to see if you are not getting the empire up to snuff or just not making useful design, we need to see a save. Post one where you were first running into problems with combat.
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