Any plans to boost "weak" civilizations?

[WCH]

The strength of FFH is the "rule of awesome," which is the central design principle of Diablo 3, for instance: nothing is too awesome; balance is achieved not by limiting, but by making everyone "overpowered" in different ways. This has been largely accomplished, and I praise the design team for that. Calabim are amazingly strong... but so are most of the others, so it's actually a good balance. However, there are some that are not as awesome.

Currently, Doviello, Bannor, Elohim, Malakim and Mercurians are lacking the sheer "awesome" power that other civilizations has. Suggestions have been made for ways to strengthen most of them... I'm wondering of Kael or the rest of the design team has any plans to implement any changes of this sort some time in the next version or two. The change to the Kuriotates not long ago was very needed and certainly helped quite a lot, so I'd just like to see that happen with the rest of the "weak" civs.

 

[Kael]

The changelog for 0.34 will be released on Friday. That will give us a good place to start on what has been done/what will be done. We have read the posts and made the changes we thought were appropriate, thats not to say we agree with everything. But as with any new FfH versions there are few new features and a lot of refinements on things we want to improve (or remove).

 

[dot]

That was quick. And I'm already really excited to see the changelog.

 

[WCH]

Cool. I trust the judgment of you and the team... which is why I wasn't saying "are you going to make the changes so and so specifically asked for?" but rather "Some civs could use a boost, and some suggestions have been made. Is anything going to be done?"

Would be very awesome for there to no longer be any "weak" civs... however that's accomplished. Like, to the extent that you could set yourself on random and never think "aw, damn" for a bad roll.

 

[Darksaber1]

Well, Illians have gotten a big boast.

 

[WCH]

Obviously, but that doesn't really count, as they weren't really "in" the previous version. They were never a "weak civ," they just weren't at all until now.

 

[Fafnir13]

Races that seem rather "blah" to me right now are the Malakim, Bannor, Khazad, and Lanun. That's just my general impression. Except for the Malakim, I haven't played through a game with any of them recently. Don't think I've played too far as the Khazad. Their gold limiter is just too irksome for my world conquering ways.

 

[onedreamer]

I don't see why Bannor would be a weak civ. They got 2 strong leaders with powerful traits, one for conquest-style gameplay and one for builder gameplay. I can't think of another civ with 2 leaders as strong as Bannor's. The only downside of Bannor is the guardsman promotion being more often a handicap than a bonus.

 

[WCH]

I don't see why Bannor would be a weak civ. They got 2 strong leaders with powerful traits, one for conquest-style gameplay and one for builder gameplay. I can't think of another civ with 2 leaders as strong as Bannor's. The only downside of Bannor is the guardsman promotion being more often a handicap than a bonus.

The problem with Bannor is that's all they get. Compared to the awesome power of the Calabim or Luchiurp, the crazy bonuses Elves get from building improvements on forest, even the Grigori horde of adventurers... Bannor don't really get anything at all. They're like playing a "default" civilization that has no real bonuses in a game where everyone else is crazy powerful.

 

[orangelex44]

The problem with Bannor is that's all they get. Compared to the awesome power of the Calabim or Luchiurp, the crazy bonuses Elves get from building improvements on forest, even the Grigori horde of adventurers... Bannor don't really get anything at all. They're like playing a "default" civilization that has no real bonuses in a game where everyone else is crazy powerful.

Well, that's not quite true, they do have Crusades... but on the whole, Crusades aren't that useful (especially for Sabathiel, who isn't Spiritual). They're too expensive to maintain - you have to pay maintenance on the "free" units, towns keep reverting back to villages, it's a high-maintenance civic, you lose economic building ability, AND can't negotiate a lucrative (or any) peace. Usually, if you're in a position to overcome these limitations, you've basically won anyway - or you're doing it as a last-ditch survival effort, leaving you with a military and no funds to support it - i.e, you're FUBAR.

So, in short, I heartily agree that the Bannor could be looked at a bit. I have nothing against a "base" civ that's easy for a newcomer to pick up, but at the very least the Bannor should have a neat UU that doesn't require the Crusade civic. Flagbearers are nice; Demagogues aren't quite as useful but still nice. One possible UU is a Berserker replacement (to go along with Gallows); make them cheaper and even more off-balanced on offense and defence (1 more attack, 1 or 2 less defence). Seeing as they're condemned crimanals anyway, the Bannor berserkers don't need any armor - just give them a rousing speech about repenting for their crimes, and point them in the right direction.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm considering giving the Bannor Valor as their "default race." This makes sense for a race of men who survived hell itself. This would probably be combined with changing Law III to Banish, a potentially lethal anti-demon (and maybe also anti-elemental, anti-undead, anti-evil spell sphere, anti-evil religion) spell. I've never considered Valor strong enough to be a level 3, or even level 2, spell.

 

[orangelex44]

Yeah, at the very least the Bannor should be resistant to Fear.

 

[Broken Hawk]

I would like to see the Bannor use more powerful Fire mana spells. It would go well with their lore. They could cleanse the world by burning improved tiles, ancient forests, cause more collateral damage in stacks, etc..

Also, how about access to "Hippus grade" calvary? They would team up well with Valin Phanuel.

 

[Imuratep]

I imagine the Bannor (especially Sabathiel) as pious medieval crusaders in the style of western europe. The crusade idea was very fascinating for many people of this time - think of the children's crusade in 13th century. On the other hand the Bannor (especially Capria) let me think of the Cathedrals and other great monuments of middle age.
The Bannor leaders always try to prepare their citizens for war against evildoers and try to show Junil (or whoever the player want them to praise) that all citizens are ready to demonstrate the world their obedience to him in great monuments. The game could represent the fanatical devotion of the Bannor citizens by giving them +1 on each cottage, hamlet, village and town (on these perhaps even +2 ) and perhaps +1 or +2 on the city tile (modified by some tech). By that Capria would be on par with the great wonderbuilders like the Luchuirp or the Sidar (because right now +50% on wonders doesn't help her a lot. In FFH you need special abilities like the Luchuirp world spell or the Sidar Wanes to build lots of wonders like in vanilla civ) and you could effectively lead wars against your enemies.
Another idea I had, was: What if the Bannor didn't get happiness mali from being in war with other civilizations but boni on production and happiness (something like "We are ready to wipe out evil from the face of Erebus") at least if the enemy has evil alignement or another religion.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Logically/lore-wise the Bannor should really have Fire mana instead of Earth, but Kael thinks it is inappropriate for the Bannor to have the powerful arcane spells fire would provide.

I'd like to see Bannor (High) Priests of the Order (or UUs thereof) have the added ability to use the fire spells order priests could use before the spell system merge (Ring and Pillar of Fire), in addition to the normal Order priests spells available to everyone.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Kael thinks it is inappropriate for the Bannor to have the powerful arcane spells fire would provide.

Blaze is a powerful arcane spell? I mean, sure, it does cool things to jungles but... Yeah.

Or is there some twisted assumption that you can have mages casting fireballs, without, y'know, having had 11 to 15 turns to build a fire node already.

 

[Annex]

Logically/lore-wise the Bannor should really have Fire mana instead of Earth, but Kael thinks it is inappropriate for the Bannor to have the powerful arcane spells fire would provide.

I'd like to see Bannor (High) Priests of the Order (or UUs thereof) have the added ability to use the fire spells order priests could use before the spell system merge (Ring and Pillar of Fire), in addition to the normal Order priests spells available to everyone.

Agree. Law and Spirit mana make perfect sense. I think, considering the lore, fire mana makes more sense than the "we dont exactly trust magic" sentiment. Is there any reason they have earth mana over another type?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The only explanation for Earth I know of is that it (like Law, and Ice for that matter) is tied to unchanging traditions. Also, Kael has stated that he wants each civ to start spheres form at least 2 branches, and to have at least 1 decent summon. It may have been a mostly random choice though.


I still think that Fire is a better choice though. I might even see biger problems with Spirit, as Junil and Sirona don't get along.

On the other hand, the Bannor do officially sanction the worship of Lugus and Sirona (as long as their priests serve in their crusades, presumably mostly as medics) and provide support for their temples. What you you think of having Law, Spirit, and Sun? (I also have reason to believe that in the original D&D campaign that Junil and Lugus were one. Junil is described as a God of Light in the Tale of Saverous, and Bannor means "Sons of Light." I'm thinking Kael decided to split up the gods and give them more character flaws for the mod)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

They had earth because it was more defensive and the bannor were intended to get their offense through their martial or preistly units, by default. Of course, that was a couple magic-system revisions ago.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Law and fire should definitely be in... for the third one sun or spirit are equally good AFAIK