Any tips for appoaching Deity?

[Gumbolt]

Cohon gets you 1 extra trade route. Calendar get's you 3 decent commerce tiles. You have 2 luxury resources you could of traded for.

I think the cow fish site should of been settled sooner. With so much jungle early on many of the early cities looked marginal. If you wanted to settle the cow/rice site that makes tech decisions a bit harder.

What were the best techs to skip here? Pottery and cottages seems quite important. That and making most of 3c coastal tiles and financial trait.

Tiny maps would probably make this slightly easier albeit keeping up with ai techwise might be more challenging on a jungle heavy map. When an ai has a free settler and is limited on land it stops any real expansion.

Agree 5 workers with 7 cities seems low. Especially if you are farming plains tiles.

Yes always have a plan and play the map. Aesth is always a good early trade bait.

 

[gavenkoa]

Aesth is always a good early trade bait.

I improved my game with this! I got it after Math + Currency though. I wanted extra +3G from each coastal city as I have oversea neighbors from the start.

 

[gavenkoa]

For me, who is abit lazy with opening saves, a screenshot overview of the area is very good.

Red are my cities, Blue are possible cities I like to have but they are almost all without food extra.

I am alone on an island initially... This time 1 Barb city and one AI city our of my control.

 

[sampsa]

No offense but did you look at his save? There was 1 dry rice and 1 plains cow, skipping at least Agri looks like a good choice.

Yes I did. Maybe I was very unclear though, I meant in general it's good to improve food and not to beeline something like currency. Close to 1AD there is an unimproved grass cow, but that is obviously due to bad worker management.

Although I practiced waiting 1-3T to maximize overflow.

This is bad, unless you actually do something with that overflow. When you are slow building a worker/settler for the sake of maximizing overflow you are transforming 1->1. There are way better rates available.

This map helps to improve worked / economy aspects.

I'll play the start and post my interpretation of the early game.

If I wasn't isolated I needed to fight for the land and build troops.

I see what you mean, but for many people "isolated" means no early contact at all.

 

[sampsa]

T50

Spoiler :

BW-wheel-hunt-AH-arch-agri-pottery-sailing-(myst). Changed my mind and went myst before writing because that monument is important for capital -cap. I think here it's good to have only two cities, since no clear strong 3rd site. Maybe with earlier archers could have been possible to locate a 3rd site already.

Setting up capital for settler whips. Investing in two expensive buildings, but it will turn food surplus from +9 to +13, which will even be doubled by granary. Maybe the lighthouse is an overkill though, -cap can't sustain many settler-whips anyway. Granary is just finished, so one turn of avoid growth wins food.

T70

Spoiler :

3rd and 4th settled (they are connected to each other). Popped copper, maybe should have deleted it via world builder, but felt unnecessary, it's not a huge deal. Capital is cooling down whip anger and slow building a settler. Amazing that nobody has -resources to trade.

T85

Spoiler :

Finally got my hands on HR, so -issues are finally fixed. Getting ivory and sugar via trade too.

T100

Spoiler :

Went compass, since cothons are pretty good on this map and will help capital -cap. Barb city is annoyingly on a hill so maybe need at least one catapult to soften it up. Probably can get currency and construction with compass.

Yuck, -5 but it won't last long. Map offers barely any resources trades and no buddhism spread yet either.

T115

Spoiler :

The empire is finally flourishing. Planning to use that 1st for a golden age, win lib and crush with cuirassiers.

1AD save attached. Ask for details or earlier saves if you want.

 

[gavenkoa]

When you are slow building a worker/settler for the sake of maximizing overflow you are transforming 1->1. There are way better rates available.

At that time I have Granary. So rate varies between 2-2.5. The better rate is to work green mine, which some cities lack...

I should admit that don't understand fully why maximizing overflow is good thing... In my cases with overflows after settler / worker I also finished next important Archer or Library or Lighthouse.

Now that you mentioned I see no reason for overflows in good production cities. If is nice to get extra H in pure production cities. Does it short time for next whip, I don't know, it is purely an intuition...

 

[sampsa]

I should admit that don't understand fully why maximizing overflow is good thing...

Well, it's not, because of what I explained. When waiting with worker/settler whips (i.e. slow building them), you are transforming 1->1 whether or not you have a granary.

The better rate is to work green mine, which some cities lack...

I'm not sure if also this is a misunderstanding. When you are slow building worker/settler, working a mine generates 2. When not building a settler/worker, yes, in a way a mine transforms 1 into 3, but that is a bit misleading. Even working a weak tile like 21 "wins a hammer". Speed is the big issue, it's better to have things now than later.

Now that you mentioned I see no reason for overflows in good production cities. If is nice to get extra H in pure production cities. Does it short time for next whip, I don't know, it is purely an intuition...

I see no reason for overflows in any cities, except in special cases (for example, overflowing into fail gold). Maybe if there is a great new building available soon and you need it asap.

 

[gavenkoa]

you are transforming 1->1 whether or not you have a granary.

Got it! So it is better to overflow into Worker/Settler in hope they will be available for immediate whip!

When you are slow building worker/settler, working a mine generates 2.

Got it! Thanks for calmness explaining that.

Even working a weak tile like 21 "wins a hammer". Speed is the big issue, it's better to have things now than later.

Interesting.

I see no reason for overflows in any cities, except in special cases (for example, overflowing into fail gold).

I forgot about this, now I remember: some traits provide multipliers for Hammers (Industrious for Wonders, other for Library / Harbor / Forge). It is an opportunity to multiply Hummers by 50%!

My current leader doesn't benefit from overflow. That was a substantial mistake.

 

[sampsa]

So it is better to overflow into Worker/Settler in hope they will be available for immediate whip!

Yes. If you are whipping workers/settlers, it's best to overflow to one, then grow, then whip.

 

[Fippy]

Overflow is best used if you want to limit whip anger, i.e. high food city whips a settler but it's not urgent (site average, costs gold, etc.),
and you would also like another worker.
Then you can consider building overflow before whipping, for your new worker, as you keep more tiles and speed him up overall (while slowing down the settler).
So this results in only 1 anger for 2 units.

Similar for let's say Axes, at 35h cost you can get 2 with 1 whip if it's done between 1-4
And ofc whipping into wonders can be good, prime example would be GLH. It's slowing down expansion (must be built early on deity),
but if you whip a settler into GLH..not so bad. Here you want overflow cos only converts into while building settlers & workers.

 

[krikav]

It also depends alot on how the distribution of hammers/food is in the city.
If it's a city that has somewhat low food, and alot of hammers, one has to think about if there is something useful to put those hammers into while regrowing.

If it's say... aqueducts and warriors you just going to delete, then it makes sense to not whip->regrow, and instead just slow-build the workers/settlers.

 

[Gumbolt]

The big difference here in saves is Sampsa has 6-7 cities all at decent sizes for that date. His science is double yours at 1ad (100% science).

Look at resources. Sampsa has traded resources for nearly 20-30 GPT. On your 125bc save you have zero GPT from the AI. That mixed in with UB and having calendar makes a huge difference.

Grabbing land early on allows you to develop cities much quicker. His capital at size 12 is looking good. For the date that looks very good.

To beat deity on a tiny map you still need strong early game play.

 

[gavenkoa]

His science is double yours at 1ad (100% science).

Not only science.

His food growth rate is same as AIs'. Mine lags two times behind...

I noticed a few Farms he made. I was obsessed with Cottages ignoring growth aspect ((

Sampsa has traded resources for nearly 20-30 GPT

I fail much earlier (Research & Food rates are both dramatically lower) in my attempts even applying knowledge from this thread...

But I agree, somewhat stupid but I haven't considered to export Horses. I'm not into a war, Horses doesn't contribute to Health/Happiness. Same for Metal.

I know that trade agreement lasts for 10T. Can I re-negotiate it for better conditions later? What is about diplomacy penalties, are there any? I'm not familiar with this game mechanic.

 

[AcaMetis]

I know that trade agreement lasts for 10T. Can I re-negotiate it for better conditions later? What is about diplomacy penalties, are there any? I'm not familiar with this game mechanic.

You can cancel a trade deal after 10 turns and re-negotiate it the same turn, yes, but keep in mind that whatever the AIs were giving you for the deal (and visa-versa, for that matter) might not be available after you cancel it. I don't believe that cancelling a trade automatically removes any +diplo point you have for "we appreciate the years you've supplied us with resources" in the same way that cancelling OB will immediately remove it's +diplo modifier, but just to be safe, don't quote on me on that.

 

[sampsa]

His food growth rate is same as AIs'. Mine lags two times behind...

I noticed a few Farms he made. I was obsessed with Cottages ignoring growth aspect ((

Yes, food is very important. I noticed you settled your 3rd city on the incense. It seems like a poor choice to me because there is no food. Maybe 1N or 2N to at least get the plains cow on 1st ring. The grass cow + fish spot in the west is the best site on the continent after capital area. You should try to settle is asap! The northern fish I settled asap after I discovered it (barb city was also an issue). You've settled it so that fish is on the 2nd ring which seems very strange to me. Always food to the first ring if possible, because then your cities will contribute sooner!

In your screenshot from another attempt you've settled Kerkouane in SW to a spot that has no food resource. Such cities are rarely worth it and they require grass farms to grow. For me, +4 is rather slow growth so I'd try to get +6 or so, but of course you can't always have that. Then again you can choose where to settle. Also the silk/dye/iron is not a great spot (thus I saved it for last) because it's hard to grow it.

I fail much earlier (Research & Food rates are both dramatically lower) in my attempts even applying knowledge from this thread...

If you look at my T50 screenshot, it doesn't look very promising, only 2 cities both size 2. But I had an idea to whip out many more settlers now that I have two archers securing land. Without CHA this wouldn't be so easy btw. T70 you can see 4 cities, 2 more settlers in progress. So maybe around this point you fail to expand hard?

1. locate good sites (food to the 1st ring!)
   
2. secure them
   
3. get settlers out and cities up

But I agree, somewhat stupid but I haven't considered to export Horses. I'm not into a war, Horses doesn't contribute to Health/Happiness. Same for Metal.

Oh absolutely, I always trade/gift horse/copper/iron away when not warring. They pay very well for them and even consider it a fair trade for them.

I know that trade agreement lasts for 10T. Can I re-negotiate it for better conditions later? What is about diplomacy penalties, are there any? I'm not familiar with this game mechanic.

Yes, you can cancel and re-negotiate 10T later. No diplo penalties at all, never. Well, "you've traded with our worst enemy" is a possibility as it always is.

I don't believe that cancelling a trade automatically removes any +diplo point you have for "we appreciate the years you've supplied us with resources"

Indeed, +1 for "we appreciate the years you've supplied us with resources" comes after you've provided them 50T worth of resources and +2 after 100T. Meaning gifting/trading them 4 resources for 13T gives +1 and 25T +2. Resources trades can also be considered for "fair trade"-bonus. For example, gift them iron and you'll get a diplo bonus rather quickly.

 

[sampsa]

Oh and one more thing... Earlier you spoke quite highly of mines. I'd say they are good only when you are cooling off whip anger. Normally you should aim to work food and cottages, not much else. When you build a mine, you are delaying building a cottage for 5 turns.

 

[gavenkoa]

You've settled it so that fish is on the 2nd ring which seems very strange to me

Idea was to have less +1F+1G sea tiles. Ideally it requires extra 10T (one Obelisk chop) to grab Fish...

In your screenshot from another attempt you've settled Kerkouane in SW to a spot that has no food resource. Such cities are rarely worth it and they require grass farms to grow.

I see. Instead of immediate growth I had to make investments in Farms...

I noticed you settled your 3rd city on the incense. It seems like a poor choice to me because there is no food

I tried to make all cities near the cost line for foreign trade routes and Cothon. It is potential +2Health...

Particularly that city will have access to Pasture eventually and to Lake with +3F+3G (after Lighthouse). Your example shows that early surplus make the difference.

 

[gavenkoa]

@sampsa One question about city placement.

Why haven't you settled one tile above Horses? I am afraid of capital giant Food surplus, sharing it with anther city - good thing (I believe).

Also this tile eventually will have access to Rice. And later to Sugar (+4F!) that was covered by Barbs...

I see only the one reason for super Food city - Great Person Farm... Probably it's my weak point too.

 

[sampsa]

Idea was to have less +1F+1G sea tiles. Ideally it requires extra 10T (one Obelisk chop) to grab Fish...

Less sea tiles is good, but waiting for +10T for the only good tile is very bad. If you were playing a CRE leader I'd see it as less bad, but would still favor 5T faster fish.

I see. Instead of immediate growth I had to make investments in Farms...

Yes, because a city with 2 surplus is growing extremely slowly.

I tried to make all cities near the cost line for foreign trade routes and Cothon. It is potential +2Health...

Well, a cothon is ok, but not game-changing. is not going to be a major issue in most games. It's much more important to found cities in a manner that they can grow and work good tiles asap! That's why for me the 2nd city site is automatic: cow+rice inland. Oh also the techs cost less since it's a tiny map, so didn't need to think about skipping agri or AH. Capital has many 3 tiles, too.

Particularly that city will have access to Pasture eventually and to Lake with +3F+3G (after Lighthouse). Your example shows that early surplus make the difference.

Yes, borrowing the lighthouse lake from capital is worth something. However, for it you need a lighthouse, which costs 60... I know I am repeating myself, but you should value highly cities that are very swiftly ready to grow on decent tiles like grassland cottages instead of something that will eventually pop borders to work a cow, will eventually get a lighthouse to work lake and so on. Eventually the game will be over already.

Why haven't you settled one tile above Horses? I am afraid of capital giant Food surplus, sharing it with anther city - good thing (I believe).

Oh absolutely it's a good idea to share that seafood. However, in my game a barb city had spawned to the jungle even before I started building my first settler making that site unavailable.

Spoiler :

Warrior is standing on the rice to prevent jungle spreading on it.

Well, founding on the horse was still possible, but due to higher -cap from CHA I think the capital does fine even with triple unshareable seafood. The reason for going AH is to get that cow asap, it's a good tile especially before a granary.

Also this tile eventually will have access to Rice. And later to Sugar (+4F!) that was covered by Barbs...

You do notice you keep saying eventually...

I see only the one reason for super Food city - Great Person Farm... Probably it's my weak point too.

Oh food is always good, not only because it allows you to run many specialists. As you can see from one of my screenshots, before compass (for cothon) my capital was able to grow even with 5 unhealth. That's +15 per turn due to working coast so I don't think you should treat -cap as the maximum size of the city. Of course, with a cothon that city is able to grow even more... Growing is good.

 

[gavenkoa]

@sampsa Thx!

On IMM I made decisions that brings profit in the future. At T100 I'm usually at a leading position. But Deity requires immediate profit, or you fail.

I quickly got that Wonders aren't useful on Deity (except failgold and conquest). On Immortal I can have a pleasure to join a Wonder race ))