Apollo too hard?

[Minor Annoyance]

I'd say the hardest difficulty can never be too hard. The second highest can be too easy though.

 

[Ryika]

However, Soyuz still seems easy so there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. You can either faceroll on Soyuz or deal with an extreme challenge on Apollo. Neither of those options are particularly fun.

Middle-Ground-Mod: Apollo Difficulty (Legacy) - adds Apollo (Legacy) as an additional option that uses pre-patch apollo bonuses.

Wanted to create that (simple) mod for quite a while now, but this thread actually made me remember, so... thanks.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Spoiler :

Understanding of the trade routes helps... the nerf did not slow down my victory times. Specialization of a city helps internal trade routes. Example, start with your capital, set to production focus, get your second city settled in a good food spot, set to food focus... send trade route... get hammers in capital, get food in second city... by turn 50, second city has more population than your capital... Approve a station with food, and send a trade route from capital, grows the capital, but does not affect your other trade routes yields.

I pay NO attention to score, or where I rank with the AI.

Send a trade route to your closet neighbor, for the diplomacy bonus, try and get some science from it. If it is ARC, she will backstab you every time.

After I get done researching biowell tech, and academies, then I concentrate on leaf techs for affinity points to get to my choice of winning conditions. And those leaf techs, in the second ring of the web are researched every 5 to 8 turns.

I will accept a favor trade for 3 floatstone, or zenomass, titanium, geothermal, firxite... since I am not using them during the early game. Depending on my needs, I may renew the favor trade, but have notice to ill effect for not renewing the deal. I also accept corporation agreements. Just keep track of them, need to know who likes who. I will also sell open borders for 2 energy to a faction across the map, during the early game. I never give open borders to my neighbor... allows them to scout out attack routes.

Population is king, as everything else in the game is keyed to your population.

I do drop as low as -20 health in the early game as I expand to 4-6 cities.. and one of those will be a forward settle on the AI, near a choke point... Early scouting is needed.. so First thing I build is another explorer, and I circle explore my territory first, to identify where my cities will be, where the natural barriers to attack are, and where I can use a choke point...

Need gunners to defend... no offensive wars early.. a marine to be a meat shield is also helpful, and we all get one of those. A rover to steal workers from the civ that attacks you. Again depends on terrain, and your scouting...

I will forward settle, and then back fill to my capitol, so I get the diplomacy bonus of keeping my promise not to settle in their lands. Do Not settle in a flat expanse... that city will die... when forward settling... move it to a hill, preferably with a canyon or mountain on one side.

I dig up ruins, in their territory and then promise not to do it again...easy promise to keep.

ARC will backstab you.

Diplomacy, it is not a straight forward mechanic... ARC is a back stabber, regardless of what you do, she will want your lands. You can slow down the attack by NOT settling near her, but she will expand towards you anyway. So I forward settle her, then promise not to do it again... holds her off for a time... send a trade route, may slow down the attack.... just have 2 or 3 gunners, and a marine ready to defend by turn 60. Building the rocket battery in the city helps greatly.

KP likes an early coop... I accept, and if she is a neighbor I will send a trade route. She is easy to keep happy, with a favor trade, or selling one resource for 2 energy.

Brazil, always thinks his military is better than yours, as a neighbor, nothing will appease him forever... much like ARC.

Biggest thing I pay attention to is their hostility towards me, and when I see the build up of troops on my border, I prepare... Might be able to bribe them to attack someone else, but at this point it is usually too late... Those favors are helpful to bribe them to attack someone else along with a few resources. If two AI's have conflicting borders, it is easy to bribe one to attack the other. Keeping them at war with each other, keeps their attention off you.

I do not play a strong diplomacy game...

My approach is similar to yours but I am stuck winning on turn-240. I cannot break the turn-230 barrier. I see two differences in our approaches:

The first is selling open borders. Exploit or not, I will have to try it. Back to the Civ4 days!

The second is the Cognition tech. Supremacy must get it because it unlocks the affinity tech below. But for harmony and purity, is it worth it?

Some back of the envelope numbers:

Spoiler :

- At 6 cities, the tech costs 770*1.3=1001 science.
- Ignore opportunity-costs of getting other techs or working other improvement types, which are considerable.
- You need to work 16 academy tiles for a full 21 turns.
- If you win on turn 230, you finish the victory building on turn 210 latest.
- Assuming 75 production in capital, that is 20 turns, or turn 190.
- So you need all those academy tiles on turn 170 latest.
- Assuming 8 workers, 20 worker-turns each for the two academies (ignoring movement time), you need to have completed cognition at turn 150 latest.
- You said you can finish second-ring techs in 5-8 turns *after* bionics and cognition. So I assume around it will take around 10 turns before that point.

- So by turn 140, you have around 100 science.
- That means, on average, your population-per-city is around 10 each, if all your cities have laboratories.
- You have to go below 20 unhealthiness without biowells at these population sizes. Even purity can only give you 1+1 from clinics, 2+1 from pharmalabs and 2+1 from gene gardens. So you do have biowells, which you got before cognition.
- That's another 10 turns, so you actually have at least 100 science by turn 130.

100 science by turn 130, is that even possible post-patch?

 

[TLHeart]

My approach is similar to yours but I am stuck winning on turn-240. I cannot break the turn-230 barrier. I see two differences in our approaches:

The first is selling open borders. Exploit or not, I will have to try it. Back to the Civ4 days!

The second is the Cognition tech. Supremacy must get it because it unlocks the affinity tech below. But for harmony and purity, is it worth it?

Some back of the envelope numbers:

Spoiler :

- At 6 cities, the tech costs 770*1.3=1001 science.
- Ignore opportunity-costs of getting other techs or working other improvement types, which are considerable.
- You need to work 16 academy tiles for a full 21 turns.
- If you win on turn 230, you finish the victory building on turn 210 latest.
- Assuming 75 production in capital, that is 20 turns, or turn 190.
- So you need all those academy tiles on turn 170 latest.
- Assuming 8 workers, 20 worker-turns each for the two academies (ignoring movement time), you need to have completed cognition at turn 150 latest.
- You said you can finish second-ring techs in 5-8 turns *after* bionics and cognition. So I assume around it will take around 10 turns before that point.

- So by turn 140, you have around 100 science.
- That means, on average, your population-per-city is around 10 each, if all your cities have laboratories.
- You have to go below 20 unhealthiness without biowells at these population sizes. Even purity can only give you 1+1 from clinics, 2+1 from pharmalabs and 2+1 from gene gardens. So you do have biowells, which you got before cognition.
- That's another 10 turns, so you actually have at least 100 science by turn 130.

100 science by turn 130, is that even possible post-patch?

Steal science, steal science, steal science, steal science.

Yes I go negative health to as low as -30 for a short period... prosperity virtues reverse that very quickly.

Yes biowells into cognition regardless of what victory I am going for...I avoid researching leaf techs until after cognition.

I don't do the math, that is boring for me... I play the game, try different approaches, and see what works. Trying to stay healthy until mid game slows me down... I want my 6 to 7 cities up quickly... regardless of health. And then vola, with virtues I am healthy.

 

[Elz Majesto]

They buffed the AI big time. When the sponsors land, they all receive +1 on all affinities, and I noticed the second city up and running ASAP. What other buffs did they receive? BTW I am loving the challenge, every decision is crucial, and the wars now feel EPIC!
I'm just torn between PAC for shorter worker build, or African Union for the Culture onslaught.

 

[Ryika]

+ 2 free Workers
+ 1 free Settler
+ 1 free affinity level
+ 20% more combat strength against aliens (from +40% to +60%)
+ 1 additional "defensive" unit (= combat rover)
+ supposedly "improved" and "tweaked" AI-scripts

Should be everything if I didn't miss any bonuses.

 

[Gort]

Huh. I wonder what the AI script stuff is about.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

+ 2 free Workers
+ 1 free Settler
+ 1 free affinity level
+ 20% more combat strength against aliens (from +40% to +60%)
+ 1 additional "defensive" unit (= combat rover)
+ supposedly "improved" and "tweaked" AI-scripts

Should be everything if I didn't miss any bonuses.

You mean they're still not getting massive health bonuses to the point where it's not even a consideration for them, paying a tiny fraction of typical unit maintenance, and well under half the hammers to build units?

Compared to Civ IV deity (especially pre-BTS), it's going easy on us .

 

[Ryika]

They do still get the bonuses they already got pre-patch (only 75% health-penalties, almost twice as much growth + production, etc.), I only listed the changes they made in the patch itself.

The complete list can be found in:
Sid Meier's Civilization Beyond Earth\assets\Gameplay\XML\GameInfo\CivBEHandicapInfos.xml

 

[DoorKicker]

How about the AI's 1-turn expeditions...

You can scout a whole host of expedition sites and have a late-landing sponsor clear them all before you can get an explorer back to them.

 

[Elz Majesto]

+ 2 free Workers
+ 1 free Settler
+ 1 free affinity level
+ 20% more combat strength against aliens (from +40% to +60%)
+ 1 additional "defensive" unit (= combat rover)
+ supposedly "improved" and "tweaked" AI-scripts

Should be everything if I didn't miss any bonuses.

Thanks!

I noticed in my games, that their may be a possible bug with the AI Affinity level bonus.

On affinity level 2, you would get the Ranger>Gunner upgrade.
However in my games, the affinity level 2 Sponsors do not get the upgrade.
Anyone else notice that?

 

[Gort]

How about the AI's 1-turn expeditions...

You can scout a whole host of expedition sites and have a late-landing sponsor clear them all before you can get an explorer back to them.

For every one turn AI expedition I've heard about, I've seen AIs begin an expedition and leave before it completes. Guess I must just be lucky.

 

[Xenotitan]

1 turn expeditions might be because some other AI left partway through. I'm pretty sure the AI does get a bonus to expedition speed, just not enough to one turn it.

 

[keldaur]

I had seen it one turn expeditions.

 

[Ryika]

I had seen it one turn expeditions.

AIs often leave expeditions 1 turn before finishing, for whatever reason. Anyone else can then finish these expeditions in 1 turn, have had some of them myself. Now, that does of course not rule out that there's a bug that let's them sometimes get turn 1 expeditions on untouched relics, but I don't really see a reason to assume a second bug when the first one can already explain both situations.

 

[Mesix]

I am playing a duel Apollo game which has turned into a continuous meat grinder. Neither the AI (Brazil) nor I have made any progress for a long time. We both have 3 cities with no additional room to expand. He builds units about 4 to 1 ratio, but throws them at my nearest city in waves which I defeat without many casualties. The AI is 3 affinity levels ahead of me (I am currently 8 and he is 11, but has been 3 levels ahead pretty much the whole game).

One stupid thing the AI does is to send trade caravans through my territory when at war. There are only two outposts on the map, one is through my territory, and I have an explorer placed near the other which is far enough away that the AI doesn't seem interested in chasing after my scout. I get 200 energy every 10 turns or so (at marathon speed) from the AI sending trade caravans.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Steal science, steal science, steal science, steal science.

Yes I go negative health to as low as -30 for a short period... prosperity virtues reverse that very quickly.

Yes biowells into cognition regardless of what victory I am going for...I avoid researching leaf techs until after cognition.

I don't do the math, that is boring for me... I play the game, try different approaches, and see what works. Trying to stay healthy until mid game slows me down... I want my 6 to 7 cities up quickly... regardless of health. And then vola, with virtues I am healthy.

You encouraged me to (re)visit the prosperity tree. I found it great for transcendence (turn 230 Apollo yay!) but slowed down the other victories (boo).

Affinity points:

Spoiler :

Early affinity techs
Alien Biology 12 (12)
Photosystems 25 (37)

After adaptive sciences
Alien adaptation 21 (58)
Swarm Robotics 21 (79)
Swarm Intelligence 30 (109)
Nanoroboics 48 (157)

Quests
Alien skeleton 15 (172)
Solid State Citizen 8 (180)
Cultural burden 9 (189)
Familiar Exotics 17 (206)

Martial meditations 24 (230)

As an aside, I also realised I didn't play with harmony much. Now I begin to appreciate the power of xenomass.

Xenomass wells on a plains (aka who needs terrascapes):

Spoiler :

Plains (1F 1P)
Xenomass Well (4F, -2E, 1P)
Xenofuel Plant (4F, -1E, 1P)
Xenofuel Plant quest (4F, 3P, 1E)
Xenonursery (4F, 3P, 1E, 1S)
Cloning Plant (4F, 4P, 1E, 1S)
Alien Genetics (4F, 4P, 1E, 2S) [small detour late-game for gene gardens, after gene smelters]
Alien Domestication (4F, 4P, 1E, 2S, 1C) [I didn't get it, but usually do]

I think Apollo is not "too hard" per se, but you must accept that sometimes you just don't win. I've seen turn-198 mindflower or even turn-43 where both halves of the signal were collected.

 

[a space oddity]

I think Apollo is not "too hard" per se, but you must accept that sometimes you just don't win.

Which is exactly how it should be.

 

[mb2bm55]

One stupid thing the AI does is to send trade caravans through my territory when at war. There are only two outposts on the map, one is through my territory, and I have an explorer placed near the other which is far enough away that the AI doesn't seem interested in chasing after my scout. I get 200 energy every 10 turns or so (at marathon speed) from the AI sending trade caravans.

I have had this experience as well. Pumping even more money into my coffers.

The only way I've found success post patch on Apollo is espionage, Stupid quircks such as the AI sending constant convoys through my territory when at war, titanium mines, and getting the AI to fight each other

 

[Quantumleaper]

Was anybody able to achieve non-contact Apollo OCC victory on a standard map?