Apostle Promotions

[Minou]

In my last three games, I noticed that after a few Apostles are created, all future Apostles seem to get stuck with the same exact 3 promotion options: Heathen Conversion, Martyr, and Chaplain. My last three have had these options. To check whether you need to promote one to "reset" the RNG I promoted an existing Apostle to Heathen Conversion and purchased another - same three options again! This has been a real drag since I am attempting to peacefully covert other Civ and really want Debater, Translator, or Proselytizer.

To be clear, the first 4 or 5 Apostles had what I take were a random set of three choices but ALL later Apostles only have these 3. The odds of getting the exact same set five times in a row are astronomical so this can't just be random odds. I believe this has happened in my last two games as well but I only built a small amount of Apostles and so initially either didn't notice at all or chalked it up to bad luck.

Is there a known bug with promotions?

 

[Pfeffersack]

There was a quite lengthy debate about this here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/apostle-promotions-are-finite.606135/page-2#post-15528757

No one knows for sure, but a finite pool would explain a lot. Suzeraining Yerevan though circumvents any possible limit for sure.

 

[afeld]

(1) Any apostle that you recruit on the same term will have the same promotion options.

(2) Promotions become less likely the more you take them. It quickly gets to the point where the ones that you've been avoiding show up every time.

Was probably a combination of those two things.

 

[Minou]

Interesting, thanks for the quick response!

So, does this mean if I take the promotions I don't want early I will be able to get tons of Debater or whatnot later, or will the late Apostles have NO options? This would have completely changed my current game . I have never seen an Apostle with less than 3 choices, but I rarely build very many.

I will test whether things change if I keep promoting with the "bad" choices this game and report back.

 

[Bangau]

I will test whether things change if I keep promoting with the "bad" choices this game and report back.

I've had this a couple of times and can confirm that after taking the 'bad promotions' a few times, the 'good' ones will show up again.

 

[afeld]

Interesting, thanks for the quick response!

So, does this mean if I take the promotions I don't want early I will be able to get tons of Debater or whatnot later, or will the late Apostles have NO options? This would have completely changed my current game . I have never seen an Apostle with less than 3 choices, but I rarely build very many.

I will test whether things change if I keep promoting with the "bad" choices this game and report back.

Correct. As far as I'm aware they will always have 3 options. It should also be noted that building the Mont St Michel wonder will remove the martyr promotion entirely from the tree so I believe you can get a two choice Apostle from that.

 

[Galvatron]

I don't know how the promotions are chosen but they are not random, I'm certain of that.

I seem to notice that specific promotions will show up on all the apostles chosen together for instance.

 

[Minou]

Ok I made a few Chaplain and Heathen Conversion Apostles and eventually got a Debater and Pilgrim. Leaving those with “bad” promotion options unprompted was holding things up apparently.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Lily_Lancer]

When you don't pick a promotion the probability of this promotion will not decrease.

So when you see a debater you shall not choose it immediately (that will decrease the probability of future debaters), but wait under you get an army of apostles with debater promotions, then promote all those debaters simultaneously.

However, if you find an apostle with 3 bad promotions, you shall promote him immediately and this will make the chosen bad promotion be more unlikely to present again.

 

[kaspergm]

I also reckon this means it's worth picking a bad promotion before using an apostle to add a new belief or launch inquisition?

 

[Bangau]

I also reckon this means it's worth picking a bad promotion before using an apostle to add a new belief or launch inquisition?

Very likely.Good idea.

 

[qadams]

I wish it was easier to tell, after Apostles have been promoted, which promotion they have. Too bad I can't simply glance at them and see that instead of having to click on each Apostle.

 

[Victoria]

I also reckon this means it's worth picking a bad promotion before using an apostle to add a new belief or launch inquisition?

or to enhance a belief or more importantly just a fighting apostle. Sure the promotions are great but most fight the same and down to one charge that is what you use them for.
If you are being surgical with your attacks I see no issue, apostles are not just for Xmas promotions. You will always get pants apostles but they have their uses.

 

[steveg700]

Yeah, the thing where you keep a 1-charge master debater around seems exploitative, or at least wonky design. The AI does not exercise the good sense to preserve their strategic assets with gurus or even just retreating into a city. That makes the RV favor the player way too much.

Of course, if the AI did exercise competent tactics, it would be questionable how any would ever gain an edge, other than just having such a superior faith-generation with which to overwhelm rivals. In which case, the player would not last long. Not too long after founding a religion, the player would find Russia or some other religious civ would just pay a visit with a horde of missionaries (well before temples come into play, much less apostles and inquisitors) to murder the blaspheming holy city in its crib.