Appeal and Adjacency - a missed opportunity for consistent game design?

[Tomice]

Now that the upcoming expansion is bringing me back to civ6, I realize some inconsistencies and flaws in the current game design. Namely:

• Appeal is a very interesting, but underused gameplay element. It is mostly used for neighborhoods during lategame, certain special improvements for cultural victories, and for some unique abilities. But for most civs, it is pointless during the early- and midgame.
• The adjacency bonuses for campuses, theater squares and holy sites are inconsistent, hardly realistic and arbitrary (e.g. the distinction that jungles boost science while forests boost religion). Theatre squares have too few adjacencies overall.

I wonder - why haven't they used appeal as universal boost for neighborhoods, campuses, holy sites and theatre squares (similar to Australia's UA)?

It would be more immersive (a beautiful landscape inspires the mind) and more consistent. And no one said there couldn't be additional adjacencies (like jungles boosting religion and science, but not culture and neighborhoods or whatever). Also, it's realistic that nearby industry or mining disturbs prayers and philosophical debates.
It might be necessary to remove the current steps of appeal (like "charming") and keep the raw numbers (like +3 appeal) for the above system to work.


Thoughts?

 

[stealth_nsk]

The reason is quite simple. Using appeal like this would make any spot equally viable for any district. That would reduce the strategic component of city planning dramatically.

 

[King Abbas]

The reason is quite simple. Using appeal like this would make any spot equally viable for any district. That would reduce the strategic component of city planning dramatically.

I think what the OP meant was that appeal should provide the base output of the district, and any adjacency bonuses should be added on top of that base output.

 

[King Abbas]

Now that the upcoming expansion is bringing me back to civ6, I realize some inconsistencies and flaws in the current game design. Namely:

• Appeal is a very interesting, but underused gameplay element. It is mostly used for neighborhoods during lategame, certain special improvements for cultural victories, and for some unique abilities. But for most civs, it is pointless during the early- and midgame.
• The adjacency bonuses for campuses, theater squares and holy sites are inconsistent, hardly realistic and arbitrary (e.g. the distinction that jungles boost science while forests boost religion). Theatre squares have too few adjacencies overall.

I wonder - why haven't they used appeal as universal boost for neighborhoods, campuses, holy sites and theatre squares (similar to Australia's UA)?

It would be more immersive (a beautiful landscape inspires the mind) and more consistent. And no one said there couldn't be additional adjacencies (like jungles boosting religion and science, but not culture and neighborhoods or whatever). Also, it's realistic that nearby industry or mining disturbs prayers and philosophical debates.
It might be necessary to remove the current steps of appeal (like "charming") and keep the raw numbers (like +3 appeal) for the above system to work.


Thoughts?

I do agree with you that appeal is an underutilised feature in the early to mid game, and I do believe that making the Australia UA a general trait for any civ is an interesting idea, as Australia I actually got a holy site's base output from the UA, adj bounses and using the scripture policy as high as 24 faith and planning for this was very fun, I wouldn't mind having that opportunity as other civs.
But could this disturb balance across the board? Its one thing to have a single civ capable of exploiting this feature, but making this a general ability will drastically increase the outputs of all districts thus disturbing balance by making things like blazing through the tech tree even easier than it already is.

 

[Victoria]

I am not convinced the learned or devout would really benefit from appeal. They are rather focused on their passion.
I agree there are not many practical values for beauty beyond tourism and housing but then is there really anything else?

 

[Tomice]

Basically:

• industrial zones, harbors, commercial hubs, neighborhoods remain as they are
• Instead of the mountain and woods bonus, campuses and holy sites get a bonus from appeal
• theater squares also get the same appeal bonus
• to increase variety, jungles give adjacency to holy sites and campuses, while theater squares get bonuses from wonders

And yes, this would make the placement requirements for campuses and holy sites identical. But that's a small price IMHO for added consistency, realism and dynamic gameplay (as appeal changes often over the course of the game).

 

[Tomice]

But could this disturb balance across the board? Its one thing to have a single civ capable of exploiting this feature, but making this a general ability will drastically increase the outputs of all districts thus disturbing balance by making things like blazing through the tech tree even easier than it already is.

It is too late now, and probably to big of a change even for a possible second expansion after rise&fall.

It is just that IMO there are 2 concepts that basically mean the same: The additional faith/science from mountains represents inspiring and pleasant surroundings, the same thing represented by appeal.
Merging the two concepts in a logical matter would have made the game more consistent and immersive in my eyes.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

It makes sense to me that appeal is only relevant in the late game. People throughout history generally didn't care how pretty their surrounding were until there was a large middle and upper class who could afford to be choosey.

The existing adjacency bonuses also mostly make sense to me. Mountains provide a bonus to both campuses and holy sites because an elevated position makes stargazing easier, and stargazing is useful for both astrology and astronomy. Rainforests provide a bonus to campuses because the sheer density of different species in that type of terrain helps with studying biology. Woods provide a bonus to holy sites because many of the more commonly known pagan religions began in heavily wooded areas, like the British isles (remember the Celts' unique ability from Civ 5). Natural wonders provide a boost to holy sites because early humans could not think of any explanation for their existence other than the supernatural. Rainforests can also provide a bonus to holy sites if the appropriate pantheon is chosen.

Theatre squares have few adjacency bonuses, but they are also one of the few districts that can have their adjacency increased retroactively. You cannot create new mountains or jungles for campuses or sea resources for harbors or hills for industrial zones, but you can always build new wonders around your theatre square. You can plant new woods around your holy sites, but only five eras after you start building them. You can build harbors next to your commercial hubs, but you cannot create rivers.

 

[dagriggstar]

For my science mod one of the changes I made was to remove all the raw science from buildings and replace it with what I guess I would describe as situational science. Universities adding 0.5 science per level of appeal being one example. Can say it definately adds a new dimension to district placement as I spend a lot more time planning out where my districts will go.

 

[ezzlar]

Temples and other holy buildings are often set in appealing or dramatic landscapes.

 

[masda_gib]

Before Civ6 realeas I remember hearing that the appeal of a city tile would determine the base amenities that city would have.
I don't know if that is in game (I think not) but that would be a factor that would be effective early in a game.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I like this idea! It makes sense to me that Holy Sites and Theatre Squares have appeal bonuses, they're meant to *inspire* the citizens visiting them, after all. Especially where the Theatre Square is concerned it feels like a missed opportunity to not give them additional adjecency bonuses for bordering Breathtaking Appeal hexes.

But I think the reverse can be said for Industrial Zones, which are often put away from the City Centre irl. They could gain a bonus for being in areas of low Appeal. Same for Encampments.

 

[Victoria]

Should this not be in the ideas and suggestions forum?

 

[Scaramanga]

Holy sites and theaters spread appeal to surrounding tiles, it's the other way around currently.

 

[UWHabs]

Playing as Australia, it was kind of fun to get my appeal going to make sure my campuses ended up in breathtaking tiles. But I don't think it really makes sense as a general rule.

What would be nice to see would be for districts in breathtaking locations generate tourism late game. Not as much as a seaside resort, and maybe only with a policy card, but that would certainly provide a neat extra bonus to think about late game.