Archery units in FfH

[Slvynn]

I think there is no thread that discussing archery units still so i am creating one.

1st of all they are very cool units in FfH, but using them is good only for particular races.

Lets share knowledge and oppinions in this thread.


From my experience i used them well as Sidar. Yeah sidar are really great by using them.
The idea that Sidar are adept loving guys, and like to build alot of them. At early game (esp if it epic or marathon) its very important which mana you have from your palace.. cause to get exact one sometimes is problem, esp. if you want mages and elementalism (because elementalism is prequisite for sumonning, so it wont help getting sorcery asap)

So you always better rely 1st of all on your starting mana types and get much you can from them.

The strat is using 2 types of units:
1. for attacking when you sure you will win to not lose precisious xp unit
2. defenders (for type 1 stack or cities)

1 type units = are mages with body 2 combat 5 and some enchantment 2 combat 5
2nd type = archers early , longbowmans later.

such staks will be haveing movement 2 (always) due haste spell, hi regeneration and healing while moving due regeneration spell, and hi (6) defence , with improved city/hills percentages (when movement = 2 its easier to pick tile where stack ending every turn, pick hills).
Ah , also, if i play sidar i play RoK.
RoK is best religion for them due industrialism and defenciness (Guerilla II baby)
So now imagine such armies also have guerilla 2 hasted archery units .

The strategy that archery/defencive units are must for sidar due their playing style + you dont want to lose 24 xp points mage, believe me.
And while you in need of defence-only units , they are even better with sidar, as race that starts with enchantment mana, that allow on lvl 2 cast spell Flaming Arrows , which is permanent archery units +1 strenght boost!!!!
That means YOU BY DEFAULT, have 4/6 archers instead 3/5.
1st node you should build should be enchantment.
It gives you +1 in all cities and also your adepts will start with enchant blade that means +20% strenght to your warriors for free and permanent, and when you have your 1st mage you will have easy 4/6 units, relatively early in game. (in case you need not to chop alot of forest you even should learn archery b4 bronzeworking), and then beeline to sorcery, while your adepts cooking.
Also their defencive trait giving 50% building time discount for Archery range , making it aviabkle to build even in not big and strong cities relatively fast to spawn best defence.



Ammurites:
Fire bows talk for themselves
Fire 2 and sorcery casting archery units is enough to get your bowyers asap.,
Also think that if you get 1-2 enchantment nodes they will have permanent +1 strenght boost.

Illians.
Enchantment mana from palace and UU is enough to use them widely.
Race is not finished though.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Dont' forget the Ljosalfar get Dexterity for their Archery units, giving them +1 attack strength. They are very good on the archery tree, as they also get flurrys, which replace crossbowman.

 

[Slvynn]

A yeah i just never played Ljosalfar :}
Sure , forgot them, sure descent race to lay with.

Also, any massive strat suggestions for nightwatch?

 

[daladinn]

never ever ever discount the city defense line of promotions. city defense 2 will stop most armies dead in their tracks.

my favorite archers i have ever had .... hill defense 2 and city defense 3. invincible longbowmen. lol

 

[Darkheart]

My specific knowledge on this maybe a little out of date as I haven't seriously played LJ's since 023, so the specifics may have been tweaked, but the underlying philosophy remains valid.

I like to use archers on both attack and defence, particularly for Ljosalfar, but the strat is relevant to all (most) civs. For purposes of this discussion though I'll concentrate on LJ's with Amelanchier, which is by far the best combination, as archers ARE a weak path ATM, and some of the below can only really be achieved (or, should be attempted) using LJ's.

Archers are pretty much the only early choice for Lj's due to hunting/archer tech path...as this opens FOL and also an early Gilden, which are both very powerful for Lj's. I'd even tech this path before writing....YES... it's that important!...though others may disagree.

As Daladinn points out City def archers are the defender of choice and at 5 xp a city def2 is not beyond straight production, without need for further training, but even a city def 1, once dug in, is really quite difficult to dislodge. The only problem with this, as far as Lj's go, is that warfare is on the metal tech path, and therefore quite low priority for elves.

Although archers are no-brainers for cities, it's the field use of them that is the bit that it's seems a lot of people miss. I believe the secret of archers for DEFENCE in the field is to use their fortification bonus, the additional +25% can make a big difference to a str5 def unit, but it means you have to keep them still, thus giving the opponent the initiative as to whether to attack.

The way to counter this is to create corridors of movement, where you deny your opponent the use of the better defensive terrain, forcing him onto hills rather than woods, and flat land rather than hills or woods. Defending a wooded hill on the edge of a wood line is the ideal placement. Give your opponent the choice...attack a well dug in defensive unit on good defensive terrain, standstill (fortify) or break cover and expose yourself to counterattack in open terrain. (BTW when given this choice the AI tends to attack.) The counter-attack bit is dependant on whatever technology you may have available, Cavalry is better for flat land, whereas melee/recon/archer tends to be better for woods, the reason being is that for most civs, with a 2mp cost to attack into woods means you will be left there similarly exposed (and possibly wounded) yourself. Whereas cavalry on flat land generally has the movemnt to escape back to a defended position. It also is the interceptor of choice as it's greater movement allows it to cover larger areas, so reducing the number of units you need to hold the overall line.

However, if the defence position is part of your permanent border defence, then road from the hill to the "kill ground", this gives a 1/2 mp cost to attack and can then be achieved using only a local melee/archer unit, stationed at the site. Elves don't suffer this restriction as they have double move in woods (+10% attack bonus) so can therefore attack and retreat back to cover in the same turn. This attack/retreat mechanism is very important as you can then spend the next turn healing rather than moving.

That's the basic tactic, obviously in areas of heavy fighting or a choke point, additional defenders and reactors are required, possibly also a disciple for faster healing and even an adept for buffing or charm. I've found it to be very effective against AI, and can cause humans quite a headache too. The important bit though is stay still and force your opponent to expose himself.

For offensive archers you need to change the philosophy, you'll never have the intrinsic +25% city attack that axeman get, same as city attack is not available to the archer line, so we're not looking at an army of conquest here. The objective of the early archer army is to be "SPIKEY", where, once you get inside his borders, it's gonna be really expensive for him to get you out. He has to try coz you're pillaging and raiding, hampering his operations, capturing workers and cutting his road links. Early in the game, 1v1 there's virtually nothing that can touch an archer once it starts to dig in, and as most humans tend to push melee line (metal), they are definately on the wrong side of the paper/scissors/stone equation, as shock is a lot more common (and useful) than cover, due to the early apearance of barb warrioirs.


The problem is....offense, by implication, requires movement, thus depriving you of the fortification bonus. Archers, early game, and later longbowmen still have the best intrinsic defence of equivalent tiered units, which you should use to full advantage. The hardest part for archers, in offence is keeping up with the recon/cavalry, so mob 1 is a must. As stopping to heal, either isolates you or costs attack momemtum, you'll need march, and as guerilla promo only gives a hill defence bounus whereas woodsman gives an equivalent one but also attack, combined with the fact that early game, there's more woods than hills (lby mid game forests start to get chopped) This would make the woodsman promo far more useful than the guerilla one. Only one of these, mobility, is actually available to the Archer class, which is another reason why the archer class is weak, melee does have far greater utility. You can get round it though and the trick is to start with your warriors.

Right from the first warrior you have, take woodsman (assuming your starting terrain makes it useful). All you actually need now is combat 3 and and then march, 5 promos= 26xp then retire them off and bring the next generation through. It's not a problem if you get barbed and have more xp than 26, take defensive...excellent for, yes, your defenders (is this too obvious?). For your offence combat 4 and 5, drill is VERY good and if you are planning FOL it may even be worth rushing hidden paths (generally light bulbed from a Bard, with first to drama being a possible option) This will give your warriors woodsman 2 and it's 100% attack/def in woods. Once again... archers can't get it, so it has to come from melee line, but at 37xp and 145 gold you now have a VERY spikey unit. In straight woods it's 8/10 + combat 3. If you max the drill line with this, there's not much they're gonna be able to do about it. My target time for this would be within the first 25% of the game.

I believe now that blitz has been added to the drill line, (though there's some problem with implementing it?), thus making this unit even more frightening.

Pros and cons.....

Cons first.

You don't get first to writing, and it will throw your tech back somewhat.

At 145 gold a pop, at this stage in the game, it doesn't come cheap, and you won't have many of them.

It's debatable whether it's worth going hidden paths this early, as you won't need GON for a long time, and against the AI it's way overkill, Gilden can do just as good a job, better even. I think it's only worth it against another human player. As each one of these is effectively another Gilden.

It's very terrain specific, and the stumpy's (no offence to our bearded brothers ) tend to chop their trees early.

It's not designed for serious conquest, it'll take a +20% city though will struggle. The objective is to stay within his land, and hamper his growth, letting the compounding effect do it's damage. You'll very soon be out popping and out-teching him, as deprived of farms luxuries and workers his economy gets floored. There will come a point where to survive he HAS to attack you.

Long wars cost in weariness and support, structure your economy for this.

On the up side.

The woodsman 2 archer is easily the equivalent of a tier 3 unit (when in woods), so once you have these you don't need to consider upgrading for some time and Bowyers is an expensive tech.

There's no drastic diversions from a natural tech path for the elves anyway. It just limits the breadth of tech you will achieve early.

Defending doesn't get you as much xp as attacking but doesn't get you many casualties either. Also the unit is operational at 37xp, everything else after that is just extra.



<<<<The important difference between archer line and melee line is archers rule when defending, base your tactics and strategy around forcing your opponent to attack you.>>>>>

As I said at the begining, some of the promos may have changed with shadows, so some of the specifics may now be redundant.

Edit: Checking up, it seems that woodsman 2 is now only available to the recon line, and march comes from melee or disciple (who will never be archers), it looks like the woodsman 2 archer is never to grace the battlefields again. Nonetheless, the tactics and strategy stiil hold. just the casualty rate increases.

 

[Slvynn]

my sidar strat aplicable for your strat too

enchanted arrow, hasted (+ woodsman in case of LJs) longbowmans (those revealed with bowyers tech) , using iron are nasty attackers.
(5/6 + 1 fire from spell , +2 from iron = 8/9 !! early midgame unit)
(movement = 1 initial + 1 haste (adept in stack) + 1 mobility = 3)

Also , adding body 1 adept to stack from start will be nice too while you teching to Mages.

 

[Caradoc]

Who needs Enchantment Mana? Just build yourself a Stonewarden.

 

[MrUnderhill]

IIRC, Stonewardens don't get Enchanted Arrows; only mages do. They get Spiritual Hammer instead.

 

[Slvynn]

Stonewardens suck compared to body and enchantment mages
And yep, flaming arrows is Sorcery spell ,and stonewardens are devine magic users.
Also, afaik Spiritual hammer affect only disciple units , and act same on disciple units like flaming arrows on archery.

 

[Darkheart]

I think the (current) problem with archery units, is that, from the start, when deciding on tech path priorities, for most civs, the metal path provides far greater benefit and utility. Most ppl do some combination of food /commerce /production /military. From a pure efficiency point of view, warriors /axemen make perfectly adequate defenders and also provide the primo city attacker. Metal path gives access to mines, 3 luxuries, one very useful religion, stage one metal upgrade and forest chops (freeing up more luxuries). The same can't be said for hunting /archery. Hence most civs/situations favour the metal path. For most ppl, archers only appear after military strategy as City def2.

The only civs that archery/hunting line really favours are Elves (Lj's/Svarts) and to a limited extent Calabim and Sheim, both of whom don't have (or need) a strong melee line, though the other benefits are still useful. Also Hippus, using hunters as high mobility defenders for their cav stacks.

It's not that archers are weak per se, it's just that melee has far greater utility and for most civs/situations the metal line is simply the obvious choice.

 

[Darkheart]

Just checked up on "Woodsman 2 Archer".....

Edit: added to post

 

[Slvynn]

MMM i shouuld argue here

I think that also waseome races for using Longbowmans and Marksmans are Amurites and Sidar.

Amurites - firebows..... Yuo cant rely only on weak mages/archmages.
You should have some defencive unit for them , and with combo of body/enchantment/fire magic flaming arrow enchanted firebows that are able to spawn fireballs as mages are just devatsating and descent.
Also they are pretty good at attack.

Sidar. Defencive trait + same adept/mages addiction, and need for defence for those. They have enchantmnet/body from palace, and discount for archery range.
Also i like Arhtedain and one of 1st mages is always enchantment , and i get mages 1st, and then archers with enchanted arrows for defence and mages stacks. Combined with arete and guerilla 2 they made me smile alot of times
After that you getting bowyers (which is more 2 xp point you need for sidar, compared to absence of direct boost of metal line units) and then iron working which give +2 to longbowmans , but later, till then they have my sidar enchantment +1 fire strenght.

 

[Terrance888]

You can use Rain of Fire and attack in the same turn.

 

[Slvynn]

You can use Rain of Fire and attack in the same turn.

sure, its why archery units for Amurites have almost same priority as them for LJs...
twincasting wizards is important, but ... uhm strenght 9/8 iron upgraded, enchanted firebows, that can cast offencive spell and attack in same turn are much more effective at more massive engagements , much more universal and actually city takers than champions., aviable when you have bowyers tech, and upgradeable to iron weapons.

 

[Caradoc]

IIRC, Stonewardens don't get Enchanted Arrows; only mages do. They get Spiritual Hammer instead.

You are right, of course. I was thinking of Spiritual Hammer.

 

[Slvynn]

You are right, of course. I was thinking of Spiritual Hammer.

Spiritual hammer affect only disciple units, like Flaming Arrows - Archery.