Arctic Subs

[Gen.Rommel]

Anybody ever notice that submarines are the only units that can cross "impassable" ice terrain? Ive been doing it for a while now, and realizing the not-so-great strength of the submarine, i always give it first strike promotions, since any other ones dont power the sub up enough to be able to do much damage. What do you guys think? I dont want anyone saying why i let the game last that long, i prefer war in the industrial to post-modern ages.

 

[DangerousMonkey]

Really? Subs can go through ice eh... I didn't know that. Thanks.

 

[Zombie69]

Yes, the ice thing has been posted here before.

As for promotions, i recommand flanking instead. Then your subs will really last longer.

 

[Gen.Rommel]

They last longer maybe, but will you do any sinking? Im trying to go for control of the seas, like german wolfpacks in WWII. Ill try the flaking promotions though.

 

[Cheeze]

Heh, I suppose this could come in handy with a sub under ice so that if it attacks something just out of the ice and retreats or attacks a stack it can't be attacked the next turn. Or even move out, attack, and then run to the ice.

 

[Zombie69]

They last longer maybe, but will you do any sinking? Im trying to go for control of the seas, like german wolfpacks in WWII. Ill try the flaking promotions though.

Enough subs will destroy a battleship. It will get easier for each subsequent sub, as the battleship with have less HP and therefore less strength. Meanwhile, if your subs have flanking 2, you should only really lose 1 before you destroy the battleship (and the sub cost you a lot less than the battleship did your enemy). And the nice thing is that all those that retreated still get XP for it! If you attacked from under the ice, you'll retreat back under it, so can't even be killed in a counterattack unless the opponent also has subs. Just make sure you have a medic in every wolf pack to keep them operational.

 

[Gen.Rommel]

Yeah the main point of my strategy is to keep my wolfpacks alive, while reducing the strength of the enemy fleet, until they can move out from under the ice permanently. Medic promotion is a must. Ive never encountered this problem, but does anyone know if the AI ever moves subs under ice?

 

[shadow2k]

Heh, I suppose this could come in handy with a sub under ice so that if it attacks something just out of the ice and retreats or attacks a stack it can't be attacked the next turn. Or even move out, attack, and then run to the ice.

I've used them like this, coming out to pillage fishing resources, then diving back under for cover. Funny stuff.

I give them movement promotions so they can run away, and never attack anything directly with them. I use them as scouts/pillagers more than anything else.

 

[Khift]

Mathematically, if you have three subs, two with flanking 1&2 and one with medic 1&2, you will have a ~98% chance of sinking a battleship with a ~32% chance of losing a sub. Now, while this is a good trade -- the battleship you sink cost your opponent 225 shields whereas the sub you might lose cost you 150 shields -- it has a huge start up cost of 450 shields to your opponent's 225. So, while in the long run subs are better as you'll suffer less attrition than your opponent, in the short run they just don't compare to battleships as you need to have an overwhelming advantage in numbers to function.


In other words, subs suck for everything but pillaging and other harassment strategies.

 

[AngryPants]

In other words, subs suck for everything but pillaging and other harassment strategies.

They are pretty good for spying too. Of course, hit that battleship with a few bombers 1st, and those subs have a lot better chance.

 

[Crimso]

I use subs to transport spies.

 

[MyOtherName]

And "short term" is very short here -- subs probably aren't the answer if you're trying to scrape together a fleet in an emergency, or if you only expect to have one naval combat for the entire game, but they would quickly become cost effective after that.

You don't consider combined arms either -- how many of your own battleships would be saved by hitting the opponent with a sub first?

 

[Artanis]

Subs are good for when you're trying to put up a picket screen as quick as possible to keep a watch out for enemy transport ships.

 

[Mars Family]

The thing i find useful about subs is interdicting 3rd party cultural zones from amphib attacks from a player you have declared war on.

For instance, in one game, my immediate neighbor was Julius Caesar who i did NOT have a open border agreement with. I declared war on Saladin who was to the north of Caesar. Saladin sent a bunch of transports thru Caesar's coastal zone to invade my country and I could not attack them w destroyers or battleships without declaring war on Caesar (altho fighters and bombers could attack and weaken them). However, a couple of subs made short work of them.

In conclusion, subs have other uses besides pillaging and picket duty.

 

[TEP]

Enough subs will destroy a battleship. It will get easier for each subsequent sub, as the battleship with have less HP and therefore less strength.

Didn't that change in 1.52?

 

[MrCynical]

No it hasn't changed. Damaged units have to be weaker than undamaged ones or the system wouldn't work. 2 or 3 subs will often take out a battleship, and thanks to a high retreat chance you often won't lose a sub in the process.

 

[shadow2k]

No it hasn't changed. Damaged units have to be weaker than undamaged ones or the system wouldn't work. 2 or 3 subs will often take out a battleship, and thanks to a high retreat chance you often won't lose a sub in the process.

Err...yes, it did change.

"Firepower in combat now based on max strength"

Technically, damaged units are weaker, because they have less HP than normal. But they can still do just as much damage as a perfectly healthy unit of the same type.

 

[Ozyman8]

i always give it first strike promotions, since any other ones dont power the sub up enough to be able to do much damage.

If your submarines don't do enough damage, drill is a terrible choice. Combat or Flanking would be better:

Submarine with combat ii
35% sinks a destroyer, 65% is killed or retreats
Submarine with drill ii
33% sinks a destroyer, 67% is killed or retreats

Submarine with combat iii
65% sinks a destroyer, 35% is killed or retreats
Submarine with drill iii
39% sinks a destroyer, 61% is killed or retreats

If you complained your submarines could only take out 2 transports before having to retreat and recover, then I might recommend drill.

 

[alanschu]

I've been thinking on modding the game to give Subs a bonus against battleships (or maybe even just "attack" or at the very least maybe a first strike). Then probably have Destroyers have a bonus against subs, and if I do go subs first strike then have destroyers naturally immune to first strikes to counter the subs.

Make things a bit more rock-paper-scissors-ish, with subs > BBs > DDs > subs

Well, at least have them focused that way.

What do you guys think about also having fighter planes being able to spot submarines, since the RAF was the biggest thorn in the side of the Kreigsmarine.

 

[Innawerkz]

Err...yes, it did change.
"Firepower in combat now based on max strength"
Technically, damaged units are weaker, because they have less HP than normal. But they can still do just as much damage as a perfectly healthy unit of the same type.

Albeit a touch unrealistic, I DO prefer it this way. I wish there was a slight penalty to Firepower vs. Damage % modifier. If said unit is damaged by 25% or less of its max, the Total Firepower is reduced by 10%, then 25% @ 50% damage and so on. Playtested, of course, until balanced.

I'm sold on Flanking promotions for Submarines!