Are F-15s all that bad?

[alver]

Originally posted by Moss321



Actually I do know a lot about the military world, I just want to know how many battles your 'best trained troops' have won in the last 20 years.

Let's not turn this into a 'my daddy is stronger than yours' argument...

 

[Moss]

But my daddy is stronger than your daddy

But anyway how come Civ didn't come with an option to load nukes into to planes? I mean that's how the nukes in Japan were dropped. Their has never been a rocket launched nuclear weapon in warfare. I haven't checked if you can change this in the editor or not.

 

[Englishman]

Anyone who would say that no other country has anything like or comes close to the USMC doesn't know jack about the military world. The point that most Americans on here are missing is that a) Marines/Special Forces are not *unique* to the US b) they didn't create them and C) they're not the best, so it doesn't make much sense to make them a UU for America.

If remember correctly a few months back the US govt., asked the British Govt. to send in the Royal Marines to rescue captured CIA personal because they knew the chances of US SF pulling it off with major casualties was almost nil. As it happened the RM's got everyone out alive and well and are the first living foreigners since Vietnam to be awarded a purple heart along with members of SAS for other duties in Afghanistan.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

I think Marines should be the american UU.
As to them not being unique to america, well...."American Marines" are unique to America.
None of the UUs is particularly unique in its abilities..the panzer is just a special instance of tank, cossaks are a special instance of cavalry, war chariots are a special instance of chariots, etc.

 

[wohmongarinf00l]

i see, i didn't read the entire thread. but the marine idea still stands....

as to this whole daddy thing....well, the american military budget is over $300billion, china's is $60billion, the russians, french, japanese and germans stand at $40billion.

with those odds, it doesn't matter how professional any little army is. overwhelming force is all that counts....and the only country that could potentially churn out overwhelming force in comparison to america would be china (population+quality).

 

[Englishman]

As to them not being unique to america, well...."American Marines" are unique to America.
None of the UUs is particularly unique in its abilities..the panzer is just a special instance of tank, cossaks are a special instance of cavalry, war chariots are a special instance of chariots, etc.[/qoute]

- My point is the USMC isn't special and hasn't had a spectacular role/performance in history to warrant being the US UU. Due to its short history and the way the world has been over the last 200 years I think it’s very hard to define a unit that is uniquely American and that no other nation has. The only exception I can think of would be the stealth bomber. No other country in the world has a long-range stealth weapons platform.

China's Mil budget was offically $12.608 billion (FY99).

 

[Moss]

I'm actually starting to agree with Englishman, I think think the minutemen would be a better american UU than Marines. They are the reason we are a country, without them we'd be under the British Flag. They could take the place of musketman, but have more attack. Or more mobility because when faced against the British army(the best one in the world at the time) they had to hide and be mobile to win.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Minutemen would be an outstanding idea as well, don't get me wrong. However I still stand by my assertion that a specialized Marine unit is best (big surprise there ).

Ask any American what military organization has had a reputation of excellence over the entire span of our nations' (brief admittedly compared to many) existence. I think you will find most will say the Marines. They've been around since 1775 and fought in every major and darn near every minor action our nation has been involved in. No offense to you European posters, but when the barbary pirates were extorting money from y'all, we sent in the Marines and seized Tripoli . The GERMANS gave them the nickname of "devil dogs" (actually teufelhunden in German I think, some legendary dog) after the Battle of Belleu Woods in WWI.

Having said all this, please don't take my posts as any sort of insult to any other nation's Marines.

 

[Zouave]

Just for the record, the British and Japanese had marine troops specializing in amphibious operations all of which saw action in that capacity before the USMC did,

But a superior American marine unit, stronger than the others' marines, is a very feasible option.

I likely prefer a stronger, longer-ranged bomber for the American UU, unless to prefer a cheaper more mobile type of musketman or rifleman. Either works.

 

[Englishman]

Hello brick wall, how are you!

But a superior American marine unit, stronger than the others' marines, is a very feasible option

- Again why should the US have a superior Marine/SF unit when it does not reflect real life / history that the other units represent?

IMHO the stealth bomber should be only available to the American civ with increased chance of survival against interception, say 50% more?
The other civs' modern age bomber's should have the same range and power but without this bonus.

 

[Moss]

To my knowledge no other Country has a Stealth Fighter or Bomber. The new American F-22 Fighter has stealth technology also. I like the Minutemen idea better than Marines or Stealth now that I think about it. It would give the American civ a littler earlier GA.

 

[Admiral_Drake]

yeah the minute men would kick ass
but still i think america needs a modern uu
maybe a los anglas class Nuke sub
for the simple fact that they are better then any other nations sub

 

[Traquenard-fx]

Originally posted by Admiral_Drake
yeah the minute men would kick ass
but still i think america needs a modern uu
maybe a los anglas class Nuke sub
for the simple fact that they are better then any other nations sub

It only a question of opinions.
Some military experts think that the French's Triomphant unique submarine of this type (I think not sure) is a little better. This submarine have a engine of a reactor and he is totally stealth to sonars and others high technologies of detections. Americans can't be the best in all ways of technologies. The French have build (''with the help of british tsss'') the most speedy airplane than the prototype of the americans, I talk about the Concor.

Don't want to start a war againts the americans here, simply that some nations have done things in better way than US. Only I have the impression that everybody thinking the americans are the perfect race or something like that. No flammes, just be happy

 

[Englishman]

The Russian Akula and British Trafalgar class are of the same standard as the LA's. The Seawolf is the world’s newest/advanced ssn and has a price tag to match! I agree with Admiral Drake, the American UU should be a modern era possibly industrial era unit. After all the U.S is a 'new' nation and there are no modern UU’s other than the F-15.

… Actually what about the SR-71? That would make an excellent unit, long range, reasonably stealthy due to the altitude/speed it flies and a maybe a 3 or 4 square range of vision?

 

[Englishman]

The Seawolf is the world’s newest/advanced ssn and has a price tag to match!

- the newest US class of sub that is!

 

[Traquenard-fx]

Originally posted by alver


Let's not turn this into a 'my daddy is stronger than yours' argument...

I don't think so that traning have something to do with US victories. Simply full of cash and high military technologies.
And not that american's soldiers are better because of their training. Daddy win because he have more ressources that the other daddy. Do you understand me

 

[guru86]

How can you make the American uu a Minutemen? If you want to go by history's sake you would all see that the Minutemen were the worst soliders that there could be for that time. Come on they were just towns people with guns. That would like making the peasant the uu for the french because of the french revolution! We should really have a carrier unit or a batteship. Something during WW2 since that is when the US became the Superpower it is now.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Okay, I'm giving up on pulling any of you onto my side for the UU marines so I'll move on...

I hadn't even considered a sub..that is an outstanding idea, though it really should be a Seawolf and not LA class.

Sr-71 is/was a recon craft, personally I want a UU with some teeth to it, not just fast with a camera. F-22 wouldn't be a bad idea, but that is basically going the same route as the F-15, just 'more so'.

Okay, so for my new suggestion to the thread, how about Condederate cavalry!! Alright, I am only being semi-serious with that one, but they WERE outstanding cavalry units.

Let the dissection begin!

 

[TheDS]

Also, having a UU that depends of the really lame CIV3 aerial combat system to generate a Golden Age is almost as bad as making a bombard unit the UU for a civ and then disabling the unit so it can never kill anyone else.

I don't know if anyone caught the irony here, but the F-15 cannot kill anything, and therefore cannot cause a Golden Age.

I would argue that the US has not achieved a culture domination as much as a corporate one, assuming that you can consider corporations to be a part of the American state.

You've never been out of the country. Let's ask some of our foreign readers this: what language are computer language instructions (keywords and opcodes) written in? What is the language of aviation? How many episodes of Baywatch have you seen? Where does most of your music come from? How many McDonald's's are in your city? Who comes to the aid of anyone who has a natural disaster?

You'll find we are everywhere. There is almost no one who has not heard of America, or who couldn't find it on a map. (Well, I'm talking people from OUTSIDE America.)

I like the F-15, and I do feel it is representative of US history.

The F-15 was chosen because America has pioneered aviation, from the very beginning, and CURRENTLY possesses the largest and most sophisticated aircraft in the world. No one else has a Stealth anything. We rely on no one to produce our aircraft, but the opposite is hardly true. This is not to say the Super Entendarde and Tornado and a few Russian designs are not excellent aircraft, but few aircraft are as versitile, powerful, and long-lived as the F-15 design has proved to be. Though older, the F-15 is at the very least on par with top aircraft from other nations.

Marines? Give them a -50% 'bonus' against any land based unit, only for constant reference to what happened in 'nam. Ha!

For somebody who purports to be from "Castle Anthrax" to be spouting anti-American BS about people who give up their personal freedom and lives to defend your worthless life, and to do it on Memorial Day weekend, when we remember the sacrifices these and other heroes have made in the name of human freedom.... you disgust me and you can crawl back under your rock.

Every single one of us is here today to say what we like because the men and women of our respective armed forces have done their duty, sacrificed themselves and their families, so we can do what? Call them names? Blame them for LBJ's idiocy? Next time you get pissed at your boss and wanna quit, think about what it would be like if you did and were branded a traitor and shot for it, ideology be damned. When you walk a mile in these guys' shoes, you'll understand why I'm pissed at you for saying such a sleezeball thing.

Zouave's posts are always something to look at!!!

Yet he's reviled for them. What's up with that? Poor guy...

Btw, on a 'slightly' related topic, has anyone ever considered making a mod with the Confederates replacing the Americans (say history took a tragic different turn at Gettysburg). Perhaps having the UU being 'JohnnyRebs' replacing Riflemen for them and their stats 5/6/1 or 4/6/2?

The Johnny Reb was no more special than the union trooper. the difference was in the leadership. Troops on both sides fought with courage and valor, but the south had most of the good leaders. On the other hand, Lincoln couldn't get rid of an overcautious McClellan, who seemed to be trying to lose the war, and then almost lost the presidential election to the buffoon!

Your later post suggests Cavalry. That might be all right, but the Cav that's represented in this game wasn't invented until 10-20 years after the war.

Minutemen is pretty much the same as a musketman only the mineutmen didn't stand in long lines like the British did. You know how all of the old countries used to have 'line warfare' so if you did have minutemen as the American UU I think it should have an extra movement point.

The American forces during the revolution were little more than guerillas and militia. Giving them an extra movement point would be best, because it would allow them to disengage from battles, which they had to do frequently.

But I don't think it is good for replacing the F-15 as UU.

They were not monitor types; Britain built an all iron hull; the french used an iron cladding on wood. Both were frigates i think. Technically you are correct i think - the dates were very close - dont have a refernce with me. It was jsut an idea in any case.

The British Prime Minister, after hearing news of the Monitor vs Merrimack/Virginia battle, said something along the lines of "The entire British Navy consists of only two ships." Those two ships were more along the lines of regular frigates, but with limited iron plating. They were experimental designs. I'm pretty sure they were still sail-powered, they might've been steamers. They would not have stood a chance against Monitor; Monitor's guns were capable of firing a double charge which would have made short work of even the Merrimack/Virginia. The gunner(s) didn't know this at the time.

how about a future age

I'm already working on the design, but I'm in the early stages.

But anyway how come Civ didn't come with an option to load nukes into to planes? I mean that's how the nukes in Japan were dropped. Their has never been a rocket launched nuclear weapon in warfare. I haven't checked if you can change this in the editor or not.

They've skipped an awful lot of things, you know. What's a plane-dropped bomb going to gain us in game terms? Nothing. Planes and missiles have the same range limitations. You want to code in something obnoxious that would never be used. When was the last time you ever believed that a phalanx could stand up to a squad of troops with machine guns? Or a bunch of untrained conscripts stood up to an elite troop? But it happens with startling regularity in this game.

Hello brick wall, how are you!

HAAHAA!

Ok, so what have we got here?

Minuteman
F-15
AMERICAN Marine
Super Carrier
F-22 or ATF (not the same a/c, but same basic idea)
SEAL or Delta Force
Seawolf

Of these choices, I'd say only the Super Carrier is distinctly American. No one else has built one, and no one else is likely to; they're expensive to build and operate, and who else needs one? The Russians started to build one, but the result would not have been in the same class. Other nations have VTOL carriers and helo-carriers, but again, nothing can match the airwing of a CVN. (Actually, now that I think about it, doesn't France have a super carrier, or something close to it?)

Other countries have high-performance land-based aircraft, Marines, and Special Forces. The Seawolf, while recognized as the most advanced submarine, is probably still at just about even odds with other SS and SSNs, and others might decide to build their own.

So unless we make it the TLAM or the F-14 (because of its Pheonix missiles and it's carrier based), then I say we use the CVN/super carrier. The supercarrier has a better defense, it carries 8 a/c, its radar-planes give it a spotting range of 3 vs 2, and it's nuclear powered.

 

[JohnnyReb]

(Actually, now that I think about it, doesn't France have a super carrier, or something close to it?)

I think it is called the Foch, although I have no idea about its' size / complement / etc. I think the Brits have a couple/few carriers as well, though they're a slightly different design (ramp assisted takeoffs, etc).

Btw, I suppose you're right about the Con. Cavalry being too early to compare to that in the game.