Are Some Starts Just Not Winnable?

[floydmcw]

I remember someone opining in an earlier thread that it was simply not possible for a Deity level player to lose on Emperor.

I usually play Emperor (and win ~90% of my games, I don't regenerate my starts). I can win on Immortal a fair percentage of the time.

My latest game was Justinian, fractal, standard size/speed. Started with wet wheat and brown cow. At first I liked the start, it was forested and there was a choke point between me and the other 3 civs (Gilgamesh, Hannibal, and WvO). But there was no commerce, no luxuries, no stone or marble, no flood plains. I expanded to 6 cities and cottaged the few green tiles available. (Anyway it's hard to work a lot of cottages with a 4 happy cap.)

I tried for GLH to get more commerce but was beaten to it. I had built Stonehenge and that got me a GP, I settled him and that helped a little.

All I had was copper. So I chopped a bunch of axes (had 24 at one point). Hannibal was closest to me, but he had pumped a lot of units and had 6 cities. WvO had 4 cities, including the Hindu holy city, and few defenders, so I went after him. Unfortunately before I could finish he bribed the other two on me and it was game over.

(I adopted Hinduism which was the continent's religion. No one made any demands I could accept.)

So ... what do you do with starts like that? No commerce + no luxuries makes it really difficult to make progress. If I'd tried to tech Construction I'd probably have faced longbows. I've had success with the breakout axe rush before but WvO was just a little too far away.

If I don't try to break out, what am I waiting for? Can't do cataphracts/cuirs with no horses or iron. I guess I could try rifles but it just seems like I'll fall further and further behind the AI.

 

[Major Tom]

Though AIs and unlucky about GLH, but did you beeline Currency? Extra traderoutes and cash for hammers? 24 axes cost a lot so strange you did not get any quick returns from war and pillage. As for happiness, there is always Monarchy. Perhaps you should have whipped more if your citypop was too high?

 

[Fippy]

Do you think that you lost GLH cos you built stonehenge?

Such starts need some focus yep.
Myst starter could also try Oracle.
Cottages with no Fin or Rivers are not really good, so pottery would be something that i would certainly skip in favor of Oracle techs or faster GLH techs.
With many forests, you usually only need bronze working for those wonders besides teching.

 

[floydmcw]

Do you think that you lost GLH cos you built stonehenge?

Such starts need some focus yep.
Myst starter could also try Oracle.
Cottages with no Fin or Rivers are not really good, so pottery would be something that i would certainly skip in favor of Oracle techs or faster GLH techs.
With many forests, you usually only need bronze working for those wonders besides teching.

Stonehenge went in my inland capital. I figured it was a good play because there was no pressure from other AIs after I settled my choke point city. And settlers are easy to build when you have browncow and are IMP.

I probably lost GLH because I teched writing before sailing. It's hard not to tech writing when one of the few possible sources of research is scientists.

But your main point is absolutely right, I should have realized very quickly that my start demanded Oracle and/or GLH. I could have skipped Pottery/Writing and gone PH/Sailing/Masonry.

 

[sampsa]

Yes, I do think 100% of the emperor games on standard map scripts are winnable.

People already gave you some good points. Forget Stonehenge really, it does you very little and takes you further away from beneficial stuff (I mean that those could be used a lot better). Focus, just like Fippy said. Coast is a decent way to get in the early parts of the game. If you really don't have -resources and can't get them via trade, go monarchy for HR.

Emperor AI will not run away from you in tech if you do the right things. You will run away from AI with the help of pacifism and bulbs towards liberalism, well that's the safest route anyway. 6 cities is easily enough. GLH would have probably made the game really easy, but you can do without it.

If you really want to learn, post a starting save and see how other people deal with the issues you struggled with.

 

[lymond]

While you may win some IMM games, it still sounds like some flaws in your game. Stonehenge very often a bad thing to build, except for fail gold.

 

[floydmcw]

Yes, I do think 100% of the emperor games on standard map scripts are winnable.

People already gave you some good points. Forget Stonehenge really, it does you very little and takes you further away from beneficial stuff (I mean that those could be used a lot better).

I realize in general that Stonehenge is not a great play, but in this particular case I think it worked well to transfer hammers from my capital to other cities. I had a lot of spare capacity in my capital without much to do. I didn't need warriors because I was on a peninsula with no barbs. I had no horses or metal (yet) for better units. I cranked out a lot of settlers with my IMP bonus.

Also note that SH gave me a GP to settle.

Focus, just like Fippy said. Coast is a decent way to get in the early parts of the game. If you really don't have -resources and can't get them via trade, go monarchy for HR.

Emperor AI will not run away from you in tech if you do the right things. You will run away from AI with the help of pacifism and bulbs towards liberalism, well that's the safest route anyway. 6 cities is easily enough. GLH would have probably made the game really easy, but you can do without it.

Yes, I should have been more patient. Though I did think, sharing the same religion as everyone, that it was safe to grab WvO's land with axes, he's usually a pretty soft target.

If you really want to learn, post a starting save and see how other people deal with the issues you struggled with.

I will post the save in a bit. But ... whenever I see people say "post your game and I'll win it" ... I think, sure, it's a lot easier for people to find the right solution when they've been told in advance, "here is a game where I had problems with X and Y."

 

[floydmcw]

I will post the save in a bit. But ... whenever I see people say "post your game and I'll win it" ... I think, sure, it's a lot easier for people to find the right solution when they've been told in advance, "here is a game where I had problems with X and Y."

On rereading that it sounds kind of jerky, sorry. Obviously there are flaws in my game and I can learn from criticism.

I'm just a little butthurt about being owned by a guy in neck frills and a van dyke.

 

[floydmcw]

Here is the save. (Vanilla BTS, I don't use BUG or BULL.) A rough timeline:

Spoiler :

0: SIP, start Ag. Build worker.
(Please note the game suggested I build a monument.)
10: Ag -> AH.
23: AH -> mining
27: Start my first settler.
31: Mining -> BW
34: Settler done, at this point I decide to build SH since ...
38: My blocker city seals off the peninsula.
48: SH done.
50: BW, I have copper.
57: City #3
65: Pottery -> writing. City #4
71: City #5
~77: Writing
82: City #6
90: Sailing -> Masonry
106: Alpha
107: Backfilled IW, Hunting, Math.
112: Declared on WvO, moved in with 16 or 17 axes.
114: Took Utrecht
117: Took Rotterdam
120: Wrote last will and testament, named my successor, and swallowed the cyanide.

 

[sampsa]

I realize in general that Stonehenge is not a great play, but in this particular case I think it worked well to transfer hammers from my capital to other cities. I had a lot of spare capacity in my capital without much to do. I didn't need warriors because I was on a peninsula with no barbs. I had no horses or metal (yet) for better units. I cranked out a lot of settlers with my IMP bonus.

Also note that SH gave me a GP to settle.

Sure, I've had that problem too, so many but nothing good to put them into. This is what you need to see in advance and you learn to do it by experience. Library is my favorite early "wonder" and I think it's more useful than stonehenge.

Getting that GProphet to settle might not be as good as you think. It takes you further from getting those GS:s that give you a tech lead.

Yes, I should have been more patient. Though I did think, sharing the same religion as everyone, that it was safe to grab WvO's land with axes, he's usually a pretty soft target.

And maybe indeed that strategy was not flawed in itself, but you didn't pull it off in the most accurate manner?

I will post the save in a bit. But ... whenever I see people say "post your game and I'll win it" ... I think, sure, it's a lot easier for people to find the right solution when they've been told in advance, "here is a game where I had problems with X and Y."

Sure, having any kind of map knowledge makes it easier.

On rereading that it sounds kind of jerky, sorry. Obviously there are flaws in my game and I can learn from criticism.

I'm just a little butthurt about being owned by a guy in neck frills and a van dyke.

No worries.

 

[Gumbolt]

Maybe Oracle and monarchy would of worked out well here. Plenty of forest. I rarely ever build Stonehenge. I mean who really wants a great Priest first???

So agriculture, AH, mining and BW look important here. Then a case of can you reach PH in time.

 

[floydmcw]

Sure, I've had that problem too, so many but nothing good to put them into. This is what you need to see in advance and you learn to do it by experience. Library is my favorite early "wonder" and I think it's more useful than stonehenge.

Writing was still pretty far off at that point unfortunately. I probably should have built SH and/or GW, but not completed them, $70 or so is helpful in the early game.

Though it's not terrible to have the border pops. In most cases the second ring wasn't critical. I did get some extra cottages and chops.

And maybe indeed that strategy was not flawed in itself, but you didn't pull it off in the most accurate manner?

When I declared I had 22 axes and moved in with 16-17 of them. Unfortunately axes take awhile to walk up to the front line.

I took two cities quickly, but suffered losses. CR1 axes don't do that well against 50% culture CD1 archers. Then I held in place, pillaging mines and roads. I used the city capture gold to tech Construction, then was going to chop/whip a few cats to take Amsterdam down and cruise into his last city.

And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids ^H^H^H Carthaginians and Sumerians.

 

[sampsa]

T50

Spoiler :

Agri-AH-fishing-mining-(BW). I think it's best to get them first settlers out size 2 here, as you have only two "power tiles", and as you said, you don't need fog busting warriors. Fishing is a great tech here, not only for clam but also to work that lake, as it's a -poor start. Putting into stonehenge already, for failgold. Neither 2nd nor 3rd city does close to nothing with a border pop. Placing 4th 2S of fish, first build going to be monument.

Note how compared to your start I'm expanding faster and probably creating a lot more than you did at this point.

 

[sampsa]

T100

Spoiler :

BW-pot-writ-(math). Laying down cottages, capital first of course. Slider @0% while library is built. Heavily focusing on everywhere, as you can see I am working several 12-tiles. I chose to not pursue any wonder, just to show that they are not necessary to get a good position. GLH and Oracle would both be decent.

T75 Gilgamesh goes into war prep, I might be the target so I get out two axes just in case. Still no religion spread, no resource trades so can't grow my cities like I'd want to.

T95 I finally get judaism and devote copper-pig to spam missionaries for each city. Also got monarchy via trade so now I can grow. Cities were unhappy for a few turns before, but it's not as bad as you might think.

By T100 you should usually have cities of this size already, especially capital. Coast gives good and there is lots of as I don't work -negative tiles, well except that one plains cottage. Also due to religion, everyone is pleased with me so I can probably go peacefully as long as I want.

T115 (1AD)

Spoiler :

Got CoL, bulbed philo (founded both religions but it doesn't matter much), CS just in and switched to bureaucracy. Those two cities on the northern coast are running scientists. Skipped academy, going to just bulb edu and lib, I think going for rifles is a complete overkill so it's going to be drafted muskets+trebs I think. +200 1AD!

 

[floydmcw]

Nice sampsa!

I replayed the game from T34, stuck with Stonehenge (mostly just curious to see if I could still get GLH). I did build GLH on T88, in the city you founded as Thessalonica (it's #2 in my game).

I clearly had production for Oracle + GLH but wonder if I could have researched all necessary techs.

Founded cities in much the same places as you, except that I have two cities in the choke point, Thess (#2) past the pig and another city by the copper. Was afraid if I didn't settle the pig quickly I'd lose it.

Took a break on T97 when GP popped out, guess I'll settle him. At T97 I have 6 cities, 5 workers, 6 warriors, 3 axes and an exploring work boat.

I researched BW, the GLH techs, then pottery and writing. Will have Alpha in 6-7 turns. What are your techs besides pottery-writing-math? Obviously Mono and PH, anything else?

Interesting that Judaism spread to you, in both runs of my game it was Hinduism.

 

[sampsa]

T97 I have alpha, math, monarchy. T103 CoL, T105 bulb philo, T109 currency. You see my first great person gives me a tech worth ~1250 that also doubles -generation rate. A settled prophet (25 / turn) can not compete with that at all, not even long term because the benefit of pacifism snowballs the effect and I run away in tech. According to the game log I won liberalism T128, that is 325AD and I think I could have shaved two turns off of it had I needed to.

I don't think your game is in bad shape at all, just showing what kind of things are possible if you focus on researching quickly.

 

[intutama]

@floydmcw
Honestly I don't think you made so many wrong things in your game, if you had teched Construction and built catapults instead of mass axemen you probably wouldn't have had much troubles with Hannibal. Generally I think going mass melee is just suicide on emperor, just get some artillery and you can halve you losses. The main exception I guess is with 2-mov units, which you can use to force the AI to move his units and destroy the stacks outside of cities (plus they have a chance to retreat).
I mean I'd definitively rather have 8 axes and 10 cat than 25 axes.

 

[Fippy]

Highlighting that stonehenge is great for failgold on low commerce starts (if you start with myst) is important imo.
Sampsa already mentioned that, but it's worth another post.

Even without stone or Ind, it's something that can be built besides units early.
That gold can be super important without commerce tiles, makes 100% science possible for some time while expanding and allows getting important techs. When cities need something to build (like wonders).

So..completing stonehenge rarely ever makes sense on such starts

 

[sampsa]

Highlighting that stonehenge is great for failgold on low commerce starts (if you start with myst) is important imo.
Sampsa already mentioned that, but it's worth another post.

Yep forgot to mention it in my T50 post, but got ~60 for it, which is not a small amount that early in the game.

 

[dutchfire]

There's a difference between a start being not winnable, and not winning it in the first try. Sometimes city settling or religion spread is just unfortunate, and sometimes you start with the wrong strategy.