1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Aristocracy, City States and Republic purposes

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by naf4ever, Sep 7, 2006.

  1. Good Sauce

    Good Sauce (TM)

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Athens, GA
    What are you doing playing FFH? don't you have a mod I'm really looking forward to to be working on? :D
     
  2. Uberslacker

    Uberslacker Tilda Junkie

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Messages:
    96
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Sureshot said:

    'ya, without the food penalty itd be a great civic, as it stands, losing one food isnt worth 2 commerce'

    Could it be as simple as this?

    Aristocracy adds 2 commerce to all your farms; that's it.
     
  3. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    GMT-6 (a.k.a. Wisconsin, USofA)
    But 2 commerce is 33.3% better than one food, under most civics and for most cities. 1 food will feed 1/2 specialist which will generate teh equivalent of 1.5 commerce. 2 commerce is 33.3% more than 1.5 commerce.

    For financial civs that's +3 commerce, or twice as good as the lost food.

    I just switched to Aristocracy in my ongoing game. I'd captured a few scattered cities. They had a lot of farms. I needed to reduce civics costs. Good-bye GK hello Aristocracy. Good-bye 250g/turn deficit hello 5g/turn deficit.

    Useless? No. Situational? Yes.
     
  4. retro V

    retro V Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    421
    Location:
    Location: Location
    Simply put.

    The only valid arguments against it so far have been that predominantly building cottages outperforms predominantly building farms. While this is undoubtedly true, I've tried a couple of immortal and deity games with farms and aristocracy as the primary strategy.

    It's not going very well.

    The problem is where aristocracy gives more immediate gains under ideal conditions, it hasn't been until halfway through my testgames that such conditions as sanitation and engineers are available. Therefore the first 250 turns are an uphill struggle. I could have been developing cottages in that time.

    Is there any point in discussing a workaround to this? Obviously, sanitation can't be brought forward along the tech tree, as that would just make early growth even easier. Making aristocracy available sooner doesn't change anything, unless there's an abundance of floodplains, and even then cottages still only need to grow to hamlet levels and there is no reduction in food.

    Meh, I can't think of any way round it, except playing on prince level.
     
  5. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2003
    Messages:
    405
    Location:
    Southeast Washington State
    Not to demean anyone, im glad discussion is taking place here, but i think those of your finding Aristocracy useful might be automating your workers. Simply put if you micromange your workers improvements and micromanage the development of each city I can guarantee you that empirewide Aristocracy is inferior to using cottages plus any other government civic. If you believe im wrong please post a savegame. My analytical skills arent perfect so maybe there is something im missing and Id love to see if so.

    Uniquely developing each city always works out better for commerce and production in the longrun than forcing every farm across your empire to be gimped for the commerce. If you have non-core city that only has a few main farm tiles and lots of hills gimping those farms would reduce this towns ability to utilize the production from the hills which its ideal for. And if you got some town with lots of floodplains and a Bazzar of Mammon then your going to want to make use of that by building cottages to develop into towns which will better utilize that wonder than a farm with 2 commerce would.

    BTW my goal here is to hopefully encourage the devs to improve Aristocracy..
     
  6. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    8,726
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Sweden
    Kuriotates with OO and that wonder that makes the city have 0 unhappiness from population? That should be good with aristocracy (after sanitation...)

    I want a change in Aristocracy too, I also think that God King is too good, atleast compared to the other civics.
     
  7. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    GMT-6 (a.k.a. Wisconsin, USofA)
    There seems to be some sort of presumption rampant that one must erect Farms everywhere in order to use Aristocracy. I build cottages, believe me. When I switch to aristocracy I do not eliminate a single cottage. It just makes what farms you do have, and you will always have a few, produce commerce you would not get otherwise.

    It has other benefits: low cost, and it does not add +10% to city maintenence costs like GK. At some point the +50% gold from GK no longer pay for that civic. At some point the extra maintenece costs are too steep to to make the +50% hammers in the capitol worthwhile. Those are the moments when you switch to Aristocracy. It does not occur every game. But I use aristocracy about 10 times as often as City States and probably three times as often as Heriditary Rule.

    I've been playing Civ sinceCiv 1 and I have never once automated a worker. :)
     
  8. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,077
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro - RJ - Brasil
    I never build farms, only on resources.
     
  9. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    In vanilla Civ, I only build farms to bring up the population of my cities to exactly 20 (minus any unworkable/undesirable tiles). Considering the powerful terriforming in FfH (flooplains/grassland), farms are almost never necessary for me. Getting -1:food: +2:commerce: on farm resource tiles is nice, though.
     
  10. Gamestation

    Gamestation Introducing Servo

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    551
    No such thing as terraforming when you are khazad. Might as well take advantage of those farms that you will be building in plains or deserts converted to plains.
     
  11. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,771
    well, while aristocracy takes away 1 food for a measely 2 commerce, i wont be using it lol
    every two extra food is worth +1 gold, +1 beaker, +2 culture, +2 hammers, and +3 GPP to me if i do things right, which divided by 2 is tons better than 2 commerce, and if i do things wrong a half a great bard still beats it.
     
  12. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,077
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro - RJ - Brasil
    If you happen to have a Fellowship of Leaves High Priest you can terraform even being Khazad, don´t you ?
     
  13. Gamestation

    Gamestation Introducing Servo

    Joined:
    May 24, 2006
    Messages:
    551
    Oh, never tried making a fellowship high priest yet. Man I have a lot to learn about this mod...
     
  14. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    4,415
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    By the way, is there any purpose to blocking dwarves from terriforming? I don't see any glaring late-game strengths that needed to be compensated for, nor do I see a whole lot of flavorful logic in it. It hurts them a lot, once the game gets near the end.
     
  15. retro V

    retro V Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    421
    Location:
    Location: Location
    Dwarves with their mines make a shedload of cash and hammers. So the little stunties aren't so good in agricultural aspects? Big deal :D
     
  16. Silverkiss

    Silverkiss NekoChan

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,077
    Location:
    Rio de Janeiro - RJ - Brasil
    Just get a Leaves High Priest and you´re good to go.
     
  17. retro V

    retro V Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    421
    Location:
    Location: Location
    Steal workers if you want to build lumbermills.
     
  18. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    GMT-6 (a.k.a. Wisconsin, USofA)
    Farms are my least built improvement also. Sometimes the value to a civic is the 'low' upkeep cost. That's what Aristocray offers, plus it chip sin a few extra coins.
     
  19. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    GMT-6 (a.k.a. Wisconsin, USofA)
    So the word 'never' here is innappropriate, yes? ;)

    That's about the same amount of farms I build, but that depends on the civ and the map. I still use Aristocracy when the situation calls for it.
     
  20. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    GMT-6 (a.k.a. Wisconsin, USofA)
    Not to mention if you are playing the Financial Khazad leader, those farms will give you +3 commerce.

    Pretty damn useless, yes? :mischief:
     

Share This Page