Aristocracy Experiment

EverNoob

Prince
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
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Per Turinturambar's suggestion I'm starting a game to compare aristo-agrarian vs other strategies. Anybody is welcome to join in as well, and use any economic strategy you see fit!

Jonas Endain
Immortal difficulty
Standard Continent map
Random AI civs

Everything is standard settings, except I put "no tribal villages" and "no unique features" to reduce variability.

Ideally I would post an AAR with this, but I'm currently playing on an Aus EeePC...so my games will be super slow.

I attached the initial save game, plus the save after researching education.

Have fun!
 

Attachments

errrr good question!

I'd say stick to expansion or tech, conquest if you really run out of room. Lets keep interaction with AI at a minimum because the AI is really sucking these days with the economic problems it's having.

How about we compare at turn 100, then every 50 turns till turn 300.

We'll keep track of total :science: + :gold: but also total amount of units built to take into account production.

How does that sound?
 
I've tried to play CoE on Immortal difficulty before and got stomped by high XP stacks 5 or 6 times in a row. Is this really doable? It also doesn't seem to fit in with minimal AI interaction as you have little choice if they decide to interact with you!
 
Cottage-based play.
Spoiler first 150 turns :
Settled in place on the plains hill and set research to Education, starting production on a Worker while waiting for Agriculture which would finish about the same time as the Worker. Farmed all the floodplains and built Goblins and Warriors until Capital reached happy limits then went for Settlers.

Meanwhile, cast the Worldspell on turn 47 when the Barbarians started spawning as far as I could tell. Deleted a Warrior and Archer but kept the Goblins and set about looking for Wolves to upgrade to Riders. Didn't happen, not even with the initial Goblin or the two more that I built, c'est la vie. Did meet up with some AI on a different continent though.

Got an event on turn 60 that part-rushed Education by 43 beakers, other than that no trades or bulbing or anything else from events whatsoever. Founded two cities fairly soon after Education by which time I had started converting the farmed floodplains into cottages. Second city went down south next to the Reagents with Gold and Rice nearby, third city went down east next to the Deer but soon became overwhelmed by one of Decius' cities which I'm sure he culture bombed.

Research went towards Mining for the Gold then Way of the Earthmother for the Religion. Runes was FIADL before me but I got a Thane on turn 129 and sent it to the Capital to convert by turn 130. Before that, however, on turn 111 discovered Mysticism and switched to God King, Nationhood and Apprenticism (d'oh, forgot to switch 60 turns ago). Then declared war on Decius the next turn (does that constitute minimal AI interaction?)

Soon discovered Masonry and Exploration, Capital set to building a Temple and more Thanes to spread Runes around. Workforce of 6 workers now setting up cottages and roads and hooking up the Goldmines, not many farms yet since the cities I founded can't grow anyway. Finished Construction and started on Arete just before turn 147 when Decius was no more (that definitely constitutes more than minimal AI interaction, right?) It appears the Clan has the whole continent to themselves now, I didn't scout that far south, admittedly, so there may be another guy down there. If there is then he has to go through Acheron who set up camp in the middle of the continent.

Completed technologies:
Agriculture
Exploration
Crafting
Mining
Masonry
Construction
Ancient Chants
Education
Mysticism
Way of the Earthmother

Incomplete:
Arete

Screenshots of other stuff:
citystats.jpg


finances.jpg


gnp50turns.jpg


maps.jpg


military.jpg
 
Spoiler tags are a marvellous feature.

Anyway I decided to go for smart orcs which will build a shiny altar in a game of worldwide peace :) . I expect to have that thing built around turns 320-350.
 
Spoiler tags also have the obscure function to not spoil stuff for others. In this case maybe some people want to start the game without looking at your turn 150 shots.
 
Ah, I see. In that case I'll take on board your suggestion to conceal any spoilers others could glean from my game notes. Might I also make a counter-suggestion that sarcasm is not the best medium for criticism.
 
@Senethro
Spoiler :
I didn't have to stockpile settlers.
 
Played around till turn 100, write-up later. It's easily doable, a really excellent start, difficulty shouldn't be a problem. However, I don't think this game is a great one at all for comparison. First, I played last night before this AI interaction rule was out there, whatever that means - it's not a good situation for that rule. More non-spoiler reasons: The Clan has no starting tech, no real economic traits at all, and can't get any benefits from lairs/exploration. They also are pretty much meant to war. Not great for comparison, and after 100-150 turns players can simply choose different paths that don't really say much about the economies.

Short summary/spoiler:
Spoiler :
Settled Gold and Copper city, nice resources all around. Seems like we only have one neighbor which doesn't give us much choice in things; just around the 100 point I've declared on and pretty much owned Decius. Orthus actually spawned very close to him, and I was sure he would take a city or two, but no, he died and the Malakim temporarily got the axe until I reclaimed it. They still were struggling holding off regular skeletons/lizards and all. Will have 7-8 cities around turn 120, build up for easy domination. GK capital doing just fine, didn't tech Code of Laws. Didn't go for an early religion either, figure it wouldn't have been fair themewise/from our previous discussion to go for Kilmorph so it'll probably just be Veil later. Will be interesting if anyone comes close with Aristocracy imo.

Edit: other useful info - haven't casted worldspell, don't really need it. Lost a ton of units to animals early on though, losing probably 80-90% odds. I got the evil prophet event but didn't have 50 gold so it was just a smattering of beakers towards a tech. General tech was Mining/Ag at start, Exploration, Calendar, Bronze, Ancient Chants then Myst. After Education I may get warfare or just go towards Veil faster.


This is why I dislike Immortal/Deity. Its not even the same game anymore when you have to stockpile Settlers because building Warriors would crash your economy.

This quote makes no sense at all. It's not true, maybe you're realizing your beeline Aristo playstyle simply isn't all that great, that's what's wrecking your econ, since you can't build Temples/Elder Councils/anything else?
 
Played around till turn 100, write-up later. It's easily doable, a really excellent start, difficulty shouldn't be a problem. However, I don't think this game is a great one at all for comparison. First, I played last night before this AI interaction rule was out there, whatever that means - it's not a good situation for that rule. More non-spoiler reasons: The Clan has no starting tech, no real economic traits at all, and can't get any benefits from lairs/exploration. They also are pretty much meant to war. Not great for comparison, and after 100-150 turns players can simply choose different paths that don't really say much about the economies.

That is exactly the point of picking this civ it seems. Starting tech, economic traits, and lairs are all variables that complicate the examination of whether or not aristocracy is a superior civic. My only changes to this scenario would be to remove the AI altogether (or put them on another continent) and get rid of random events. Then it'd be a much clearer test.

Even so, I did a few trials. Each one I took to turn 150 and compared at that point. I didn't use Aristocracy for any of them, but I was surprized at the very different results for each trial. Your tech path makes a huge difference.

I think the best way to compare is to total up the production value of all buildings & units (and partially built buildings and units) and the beaker value of all techs & partial techs, and then look at demographics. Very interesting challenge. I'll try some aristocracy trials next. Here are my results for the non aristocracy attempts:
 

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  • FFHNoAristocracyTests.jpg
    FFHNoAristocracyTests.jpg
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Spoiler :
I played up to turn 100. I actually don't have CoL yet so it is hard to call it an aristocracy save, but that is the eventual goal and CoL isn't far away. Moved the initial settler to pick up the fp + gold and teched:
ag
craft
mining
calendar
ancient chants
education
CoL started

I easily could have destroyed Decius early with a bunch of wolf riders but given the rules I didn't think that was fair. If I had, I probably would have CoL easily by now as the influx of cash after razing his cities would have been very welcome. I don't really like the rules as stated as early game the gold from conquering a neighbor can really boost you and CoE having no techs to start with really needs that to help. I deliberately avoided scouting except in the pursuit of wolves so I could minimize contact with AIs and thuse outside influence on results. I got truffles and the farmer food booster in the capital. That was the only event of any consequence and at the moment they aren't doing that much. When I get my happy cap up a little, they will be pretty useful though.

I have 4 cities settled and a 5th settler just produced on turn 100 and a 6th one in production. After CoL is in Exploration is next and the city with copper and the calendar resource will get settled to boost happiness. My military is pretty weak consisting of the wolf riders from the early game, some MP goblins and my starting warrior. All my current cities are settled along the river to enhance trade route. I've settled:
Capital (FP + gold)
Second city (3n of capital sharing FP + gold as needed)
Third city (SW of capital picking up a FP and desert gold and reagents)
Fourth city (next to rice along river).

Deruptus is built in capital and the plains are cottaged up and keeping me afloat while I get to CoL. As I've said before I don't hate cottages on plains and in this rule set they were very necessary to help get me home.

Despite the "unbiased" approach to the rules, I think this is quite biased towards an economy that sets up a little earlier. As pointed out CoE starts with no techs so 100% my stuff had to come from self research. No huts means no early gold. No warfare means no early gold to deficit research to your key economic tech.

I agree with no huts. But no warfare is horribly painful. This start was very strong for an early rush what with having vast expanses for wolves to spawn in. Being unable to leverage that hurts.

Once I hit CoL everything will be ok, but the start was much slower than normal.

Now to the pictures:
My cities:
braduk.jpg

renegade.jpg

shazak.jpg

hezick.jpg

You can see a future problem in that last one. Barbs captured Decius' second city (never would have happened if I was allowed to attack) and built Acheron there. So I'm going to be in a culture war with the Barbarians in that city.
My economic advisor at 0% and 100%:
0finance.jpg

100finance.jpg

My military advisor:
military-1.jpg


In retrospect I should have bypassed Calendar until after CoL. At minimum I should have picked up Ancient Chants before Calendar. I can't settle the Silk Copper city CoL anyway. I think I would be in slightly better economic shape had I done it that way.
 
Nobody posted the rules before I'd played. Though I didn't go for wolf riders myself, I produced my military the old fashioned way. I'll edit this post in a bit with my summary.
 
I added the save. Just to point out though. CoL is due in about 8 turns. Once that hits, I have 11 farms in my empire that I can immediately be getting at least 22 extra commerce per turn from. I also will see my city maintenance costs drop somewhat thanks to the lowered distance maintenance. At the moment my cities are sort of packed in so that isn't that huge, but I expect a couple of gold per turn immediately from that.

Right now I'm getting around 32 beakers per turn at breakeven. That will almost double as a result of CoL.

Rice getting hooked up will also boost the capital's commerce as will silk city which will push happiness up one more. Really once CoL is in I anticipate the economy taking off barring an attack by Decius or Barbarians breaking our truce). Sanitation and Way of the Wicked will also both be huge.
 
I think we should scrap this comparison, it's simply failed. It wasn't a reasonable start to try this out on. If anything the effect of barbs/neighbor AI throws this off more than an average game since the barbs can't attack us, and their effect on our neighbor(s) is more unknown. And I had forgotten how overpowering goblin based wolf-riders can be (without having to get the tech) - given the huge randomness of wolf spawns. As for my game, the economy will naturally be massive once my new cities get up and running, but it can't be very well compared to others games; I sacrificed a ton of potential other stuff early on in favor of conquest, and it will pay off differently. Anyway, here's the summary:

Spoiler :

Settled to the SE to get the gold in capital. Teched:
Crafting
Mining
Agriculture
Exploration
Calendar
Bronze Working
Ancient Chants
Mysticism
Masonry
Education
Started Animal Husbandry

Again didn't have any rules I was playing under when I did this other than using GK. Lost way too many early units to barbs, didn't go for any wolf riders myself but was just exploring:


Aristobarbs0000.jpg


Decius expanded pretty quickly, pathetic military whittle away by skellies/whatever but never lost a city. Orthus spawned and died:


AristoOrthus0000.jpg


I saw the obvious importance of conquest in this game and so went to settle the copper city third. Decius had the rice/southern spots as well. I got one event, didn't have the gold for the best option so it was just a small research boost


Aristoevent0000.jpg


Here's my capital under GK, it continues to be a production powerhouse overall


AristoGKcap0000.jpg


Declared on Decius around 100


Aristowar0000.jpg


Turn 115 here's where I am after conquering most of his lands:


Aristo115conq0000.jpg



Aristo115home0000.jpg



Military: I've probably lost a good 5-10 warriors too, here's what I currently have built. Warrens just got up in Capital for the future.


Aristo115units0000.jpg



Earlier save:
View attachment Aristo Experiment AD-0052.CivBeyondSwordSave
Turn 115:
View attachment Aristo Experiment AD-0115.CivBeyondSwordSave
 
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