Armenia in Civ7

[Bonyduck Campersang]

How would you like to see an Armenian civ represented in the game? Should the Armenian civ be in the Antiquity Age or the Exploration?

 

[Siptah]

Antiquity. I don‘t seem them as naval explorers nor homeland conquerors. But antiquity trade fits.

The problem is that they will end up in the Ottomans, Iran, and Russia.

But Armenia > Georgia seems good.

 

[Krajzen]

Armenia is an annoying case, because in political terms it was more succesful in the ancient era, but in the cultural terms it was quite unremarkable imo; the distinctive Armenian culture as we know it today developed from the 4th century onwards, since the adoption of Christianity. I would have honestly no idea what unique stuff to give ancient Armenia. Seeing how exploration era is going to be the era of religion, I would assign Armenians there, as their relationship with their own unique branch of Christianity is perhaps the most notable aspect of this civilization - as is their survival against Islamic assimilation, which took down almost all other ancient cultures of the region, including seemingly much more mightier Byzantine Greeks. In the exploration and modern era they also had a lot of achievements in diplomacy, mercantile affairs and cultural endeavours.

Besides, exploration era was not that barren regarding Armenian political entities - we had Armenian participation in the Byzantine empire, independent Bagratid Armenia, their role in Georgian kingdoms, and Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Armenia is an annoying case, because in political terms it was more succesful in the ancient era, but in the cultural terms it was quite unremarkable imo; the distinctive Armenian culture as we know it today developed from the 4th century onwards, since the adoption of Christianity. I would have honestly no idea what unique stuff to give ancient Armenia.

It's totally possible to use 4th+ century Armenia culture, while using it as antiquity civ. 4th century is still pretty much antiquity and with Khmer in the same age, this doesn't look like stretch at all.

So, I really hope to see antiquity Armenia in some DLC or expansion, civ switching approach really opens doors for it.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Civic Trees are perfect for civs like Armenia. You could have one for Urartu, one for the Arascids and one to represent their embrace of Christianity

 

[Xandinho]

I'd place Armenia in Antiquity and would make it transition to Georgia in Exploration. Religion was also important in Georgia.

 

[j51]

Those are great arguments for both antiquity and exploration! I’d go with antiquity just because exploration is so overcrowded with potential civs. It has a greater diversity of major and regional powers than modern era, but also far more documented cultures than antiquity. It makes sense to fit any civs that can reasonably fit into antiquity and modern into those eras, just to keep room in exploration for more civs.

 

[Krajzen]

Yeah but in antiquity you can't give Armenia traits related to Christianity due to the lack of religious mechanics in this era

...unless, of course, unique abilities for Armenia specifically and uniquely include it getting religion earlier, to reflect it being the first Christian state in history, in 301 AD

Btw Armenia is one of those cases when forced civ transitions would feel really bad, due to the fact it did actually survive more than 2,000 years as a continuous culture :/

 

[Kalus]

They put Khmer into Antiquity Age despite Khmer being historically Medieval civilization, so I guess they could put Armenia into Exploration Age also? Shawnees were not really known for exploring oceans and other continents but they are still Exploration civ.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

Shawnees were not really known for exploring oceans and other continents

Neither are any of the other Exploration Age civs besides Spain and Chola.

Civs are put into Ages based on time period, not characteristicis

 

[Evie]

That’s exactly the opposite of what we were told by firaxis staff, and it completely falls apart with one look at the antiquity Khmer, Bonyduck.

 

[Bonyduck Campersang]

That’s exactly the opposite of what we were told by firaxis staff

where? I missed that

 

[Lord Lakely]

They're put into the game based on chronology. The Khmer were the first major empire in their area, so they are Antiquity, with characteristics that are fine-tuned for the early game.

Shawnee are Exploration because their precursor, Mississipians, are Antiquity.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Evie]

On identifying Ages, we sought to capture and represent general historical trends that were happening roughly around the same time period. But this isn't perfect, and one thing we didn't want to do was have the events of the Mediterranean dictate a calendar for the rest of the world. So if we were to summarize some general processes within each Age:

Antiquity is characterized by competition between states and non-state regions around them – the “blank spaces” on the map. It is a time of city-building, of universalism and expansion, where states claim a mantle of absolute authority. This is the time when states claim to represent the heavens, and that their language is the one true one.

Exploration is a time of vernacularization – when these prior empires split into fragments of the former whole, and where local innovations alter what was there before. It is a time when universal religions rise to suture this gap, but where interconnections – especially global interconnections – come to define states.

Modernity is a retrenchment of empire. Here, modern and scientific thought, bureaucracy, has replaced or fused with notions of divine right, and empires are increasingly seeking to understand, catalog, control, and apportion their subjects.

In that way, I made the pitch for the early Khmer as a better fit for Antiquity – early Khmer was continually expanding into non-state lands, the building and establishment of cities and the construction of a mandala state - a center-oriented city that sought to bring the cosmos into orbit around itself. In creating this gravitational/civilizational pull, Khmer cast itself as a universal center for civilization – something which resonates much more with Antiquity states elsewhere. In Southeast Asia, we can pretty clearly see a classical period of state formation (until 1100ish), a period of vernacular splintering and cosmopolitan early modern trade (around 1400), and the formation of modern nation-states (around 1820). Three ages - pretty nicely delineated... but the numbers here don't line up with Europe.

As this suggests, there are also excellent descendants in the region that are doing very Exploration Age related things - so having Khmer in Antiquity allows us to create a more solid throughline for Southeast Asia. I guess ultimately I wanted to allow Southeast Asian states to really thrive in their own idiom wherever they fit within the game, and not be beholden to the calendar. There's some weirdness that this introduces (esp. re: Chola), but that was a part of the decision.

That was the explanatiuon fo the inclusion of the Khmer, along with more general ideas of what constitute each of the age.

Note that while the Shawnee weren'T exploring (nor the Inca, Aztec, etc), they very much came to be defined by expanding global contacts.