Armies and Culture Flips

[Jerucondis]

This is somewhat off-topic, but I was wondering if some of the 'irrational' flips people are experiencing might actually the computer using 'initate propaganda'?

While I have seldom have culture flips right when I want them, I can almost always propagandise captured cities, even those which used to belong to another AI, to me if I am in Democracy and have superior culture, often destroying entire AI armies in the process. Many 'absurd' one-or-two-turns-later wartime culture-flippings actually sound like a deliberate propaganda attempt to me...

Do people in Democracy still experience absurd flips? If you are in a lower government, capture a city from a democracy, and experience a flip, I will not be at all surprised....

BTW, do we have a formula for the chance of successful propaganda? Or do governmant and culture determine everything? I *think* you will never succeed in propagandising a city whose culture borders (instead of the 21 square radius) does not overlap with yours, but I am not sure.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


When an absurd flip occurs THE LAST THING WE ARE GOING TO DO IS SAVE THE F***ING GAME!

The problem is , if you save after the flip, we wont have anything to work with, we need a save just before it happen and you have to remember exactly which moves you did in previous turn because of ramdom weird number. Which i think it is preety hard or almost impossible.

You know what ? i have auto save off( time saving) and i save only about each 2-3 hour of game play, it even happen i forgot to save after 4 hour and a power failure happen ( i know it is my fault ).

What poeple report are fact that they experience, it is not the same as BELEIVING the earth was flat.

 

[TheNiceOne]

This discussion has got a bit out of hand, but is still interesting. I think cracker should calm down a bit before posting, but still I think he is the most informed of the debatants so far.

Tassadar and Mad Bomber, I really think you should back up your arguments with a save game showing what you claim happen. How can it be difficult to have a save of the situation? The examples you tell includes reloading - how can you do that without a save?

I would really like to look at such a game - maybe I could even find out why this happens, it may well be without any cheat involved.


P.s. did any of you remember the "elite units die faster" thread? Some people claimed that elite units died faster than veterans. I asked for save game proof, and it turned out that the only instance where a veteran survived where an elite died was the easily explainable situation where different random numbers were used to check withdrawal for the elite and veteran units.

So the conclusion was that there was no cheat involved. This m,ay very well be the case here as well, so post a save game for inspection.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
How can it be difficult to have a save of the situation? The examples you tell includes reloading - how can you do that without a save?

I have never report a reloading in my case and like i said because of weir ramdom generator influence on cf you will have to remember which moves you did prior to save.

Here an exemple, you move 8 units, then you capture an a.i. city, then you move some other units, end your turn and save. 3 turn later the city flip back, will you remember everymove you did before that. Good luck. You cannot reproduce exactly the same condition with the same ramdom number because a single unit move change the whole thing. It is like Heisenberg incertitude : by looking into the system we induce some variability in the data, and what about mechanics quantic jump ?

 

[TheNiceOne]

Tassadar, I guess it was Mad Bomber who reported about the reloading then.

So your statement that culture flips happens when it hurt you most is "just" something you believe from general play, not something you have ever tested by reloading?

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
Why should we bother to post a save, there are too many examples, from many different people to call our claims false.
If one person is stating something, take it with a grain of salt. If ten are saying it then you have a right to be skeptical, but when a hundred are saying it then I believe there has to be a kernal of truth to it. When an absurd flip occurs THE LAST THING WE ARE GOING TO DO IS SAVE THE F***ING GAME! Next time it happens though I will be sure to get a screen shot just for YOU!

Actually, a lot of people who hate city flipping reload from the autosave, so they have not completely lost their senses. A well-posted example (a game, not a screenshot) will allow the analysis necessary to understand what is really happening, and it might actually change some minds.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
As for garrisoning cities I do not have a large eough army to put 36 units in each city, so that is a no go. & My army is busy conquering other cities, I give a city one reprieve, after that I raze it!

Then your army is too small to hold your conquests, and your vast empire may very well evaporate within a lifetime -- or if you choose to raze, your vast empire will be nothing but ruin.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
Tassadar, I guess it was Mad Bomber who reported about the reloading then.

So your statement that culture flips happens when it hurt you most is "just" something you believe from general play, not something you have ever tested by reloading?

I was irronic more than anything else, last time i lost a city to CF is a few month ago ( i lost 20 panzer when a french city flip back 2 time in 10 turn).

But look the first page of this thread again, 3-4 member report that when they remove units flip dont happen, when in reality it should increase flipping. This is totaly chaotic and this why i was irronic.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Then your army is too small to hold your conquests, and your vast empire may very well evaporate within a lifetime -- or if you choose to raze, your vast empire will be nothing but ruin.

On standard map size 40 panzer are able to raze a lots of city IMHO.

 

[Mad Bomber]

MY Army Small?

NOT: I have 136 MI, & 156 MA, but even that is not enough to garrison a city with 36 units, esp. when my conquests are in excess of 25 cities. I play on a huge map with 6-8 civ's, these empires can be QUITE large & hard to completely conquer. I usually have over 70 cities on my continent alone to garrison.
City flipping isn't a major thing when it happens as expected, but when IT comes from a civ that has 2 cities left, it becomes a farce!
Also I don't reload or autosave so I don't know who came up with that B.S. I save when I feel like its time to quit a playing session, reloading after a small setback like a CF is akin to cheating! Being able to deal with a CF is NOT the same thing as agreeing with it.
My major gripe is that AI cities seem to be more resistant to CF's than human players, this is MO so take it for what it's worth. I guess well find out for sure when XP hits the stands

P.S. No on the Propoganda Idea by Jerucondis, I fight as a democracy & should be immune to propoganda. (The main reason I have to accept peace before the civ is toast)

 

[TheNiceOne]

Sorry again for not checking who had reloaded before writing my post, it was Greg Loader and 'Killer' who reported about reloads.

But still, could please someone post a savegame where removing units stops a CF.

 

[Mad Bomber]

The problem with reloading (even if we had a save) is that as soon as you move a unit out of the city you change the random number (this is asserted by someone else in this thread) and changing the random number would change the result? So in a way tassador could be right, but I do not believe that CF is specifically set to cost the most units. Also I have NEVER had a city flip while in RESISTANCE which to me is the most absurd thing about CF's.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
MY Army Small?

NOT: I have 136 MI, & 156 MA, but even that is not enough to garrison a city with 36 units, esp. when my conquests are in excess of 25 cities.

You don't have to garrison all cities. Just one strategically located one. From there, you can strike out and subdue any rebellious cities, then retreat to the safety of the garrison.

Here is a typical example of a blitz with flip:

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm8/ad1800-EnglishWar.htm

 

[cracker]

This is just a cause and effect issue. Having blood in your veins does not generally cause people to die, but all people who die have had blood in their veins. Just like quack medicine, quack civ advice comes from looking at only a few examples and then assuming you know what caused the effect.

The key issue here is that moving units out of a city or town does not DECREASE the risk of a culture flip. It may change the random number sequence for the turn in question but it does not decrease the risk.

You can get the same effect by simply reloading back and rushing or completing some units or culture improvements in other cities or towns that are further up the city order progression.

The result is random, so the susceptibility of the various towns and cities to the CF risk will effect how you see the results.

This whole CF factor is part of the game and it is designed to have its most impact on players who implement fairly one dimensional warmongering type strategies. Lots of military with insufficient culture balance will create conditions where CF is a much more annoying condition. In that respect it is a brilliant implementation because it causes damage and inconvience to the intended victims and at a time and manner that causes them the most disruption in either lost units or forced distorted play. Understanding CF and beating it on a reliable basis while still using a broad range of game play strategies is key to playing Civ3.

 

[Ozymandius]

NiceOne.

I am a reloader including the elite getting killed when a veteran does not. The doubting Thomases (hope you know the reference) wanted proof. Several days later it happened, I posted the proof and suddenly all the rationalizers were saying it doesn't happen or my proof was irrelevant. The post showed that it does happen sometimes. The rational explanation was something about hit points and a seed etc. The rational explanation is code driven. Some of us civ players like realistic explanations ie elites fight harder, won't surrender, hero types etc. who don't mind getting killed, whereas smart veterans want to fight another day, retreat and live.

I even posted a thread several weeks? ago about a city that flipped, moved units in, it still flipped, reloaded, moved units out and it did not flip. When this happens again I will post the proof just to show the arrogant SOBS out there who know all the answers and don't want to be confused by facts. S**t happens and some of us report it and expect it to be believed without some critic using all sort of arguments about how it cannot happen.
And for the record every time I look out the window the earth is flat. Only when some hollywood type use fancy imaginary graphics can they show pictures of the earth being anything else. I believe what I see.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Ozymandius
I am a reloader including the elite getting killed when a veteran does not. The doubting Thomases (hope you know the reference) wanted proof. Several days later it happened, I posted the proof and suddenly all the rationalizers were saying it doesn't happen or my proof was irrelevant.

Great post, by the way. It doesn't change the fact that Elites are more likely to win than Veterans. However, just as a certain lineup of cards in a deck will result in filling an inside straight, it is still not as likely as filling an outside straight.

 

[Mad Bomber]

Oxymandius:

I agree completely


I am also becoming angry with all these Hollywood types who are spreading falsities and inuendo about the world being round. Everyone knows the earth is flat, Duh! I think the hollywood types should prove that the earth is round, they should have a saved game showing this!

 

[Raijer]

As a someone fairly new to the game, with culture flipping problems of my own, it seemed a good idea to check out this thread. I was obvioulsy wrong. Instead of helpful information, what I got was page after page of insults, bragging, and whining by a handful of posters more concerned with ego-stroking than taking part in a healthy, informative debate. Sad. I was under the impression that Civ players were an intellegent lot. That (perhaps) naive veiwpoint has certainly faded with this thread.

If I may add may own dos centavos, I feel that CF, as demonstrated in "real" history, should be a continuing component of the game. But likewise, as again demonstrated by history, factors such as large occupational forces/garrison should in fact go a long way in preventing CF (i.e German occupation of Paris during WW2). My point is that further patches can fix major problems, and make threads like this (hopefully) moot.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Ozymandius, yes I know the reference, and I'm clearly a doubting Thomas (also regarding religion).

As I recall the "elite die faster" thread, someone (you?) claimed that there were some kind of "cheat" involved that made elite units die faster in combat than veteran units.

I claimed that this was not true and that I would need a save game to be convinced. A save game was indeed posted where an elite unit died while a veteran survived, using the same random numbers.

(Un)fortunately, there was something that affected the outcome: Both the vet and elite fought identically (as they should) until the vet had one HP left and the elite two. The next random number was for the vet used to check withdrawal (these were fast units against pikemen) which succeeded while for the elite it was used for the next combat roll. When the lite came down to one HP it failed its withdrawal and died.

The conclusion was that there was no "cheating" involved in the code, but just the fate of luck - an elite will on average survive more battles than a vet. Compare it to a simple die roll contest You roll two dice, I roll one and the one with highest score wins. There is no doubt that you will win most of the time, but inbetween I'll win - no cheating involved, just plain luck.


Well, why do I discuss this here? Because the "elite die faster" thread shows that seing a weird outcome and not analyzing it properly can lead to incorrect belief that there is some AI cheating involved. It was not the case in the "elite..." thread, and I doubt it is the case here.

So, you who believe that adding units increases the CF chance, post a save game for inspection!

 

[Ozymandius]

NiceOne:
The Elite post was mine.
I accepted the "seed" explanation as the posts at that thread indicate. At that time I was under the delusion that this game was a reflection of reality. ie. elite troops should perform better than veterans. I now see that coding and seeds etc. cannot duplicate reality in all situations. This army-CF example is similar. Reality would indicate that when occupying troops outnumber the inhabitants of a city CF should not occur as in the example of Paris/Germans. If I, as others, have prevented a CF by moving troops out of a city I am surprised at the personal attacks that we are "delusional".
Some game players are highly technical in their knowledge of code and others are highly knowledgable of "reality" or history. The conflict is a result of either one ignoring the experience of the other. I now realize that cultural flipping has little to do with reality but has a formula only coders appreciate. Both tech- and reality- types have responded to this threat in their own ways.