Armored Cavalry - the point?

[Schmoe]

Does anyone ever research Armored Cavalry? It's a very late game tech, coming after the tech that gives you War Chariots, and it only yields Knights. By comparison, Knights have 1 less strength than War Chariots, in return for only a +10% withdrawal chance. In addition, that's the end of the tech branch, so it doesn't open up anything else.

Frankly, Knights seem less attractive than War Chariots, so why would anyone research Armored Cavalry in preference over something like Rage, Mithril Weapons, Strength of Will, etc.? Those other techs are about the same in terms of tech requirements, but they provide additional options, rather than a weaker version of an existing option. I always get to the War Chariots and then move on, leaving the Knights stranded on their own little island of futility.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Knights can use metal weapons and have higher defensive strength. So unless you are without any metal, they should be at least comprable to WC's on the attack. They aren't my first choice, but I like them.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

I really ought to research it earlier than 'after everything else', Knight's are fun to make havoc with.

 

[Schmoe]

Knights can use metal weapons and have higher defensive strength. So unless you are without any metal, they should be at least comprable to WC's on the attack. They aren't my first choice, but I like them.

War Chariots can use metal weapons too... so isn't that a wash?

The knights have slightly higher defensive strength, but neither of them gets defensive bonuses. So it doesn't really seem that you don't want to recruit them for defense, and what you really care about is the offensive strength, which in fact is lower for the knight.

 

[Schmoe]

I really ought to research it earlier than 'after everything else', Knight's are fun to make havoc with.

I agree they are fun But the point is that there's always something better to research when you're that far down the tech tree, so they end up coming last. Poor knights.

Maybe if Armored Cavalry had a little something extra, instead of just the Knights and (situational) Shadow Riders, I'd be more inclined to research it. I could see an automatic +2XP for all mounted units as an attractive carrot. But I'm curious if other people have seen a good reason for going to Armored Cavalry that I have not.

 

[Skitters]

Personally I find that the whole horse line tends to be last on the list to research in all honesty - unless I play Hippus

...actually I tell a lie, I'll go down that route before I look at the higher end Archery units

 

[Rince Wind]

You can only have 4 Warchariots. Another 4 high strength highly mobile troops can be handy.
But i admit, it is usually not my first priority to get these.

 

[Schmoe]

Personally I find that the whole horse line tends to be last on the list to research in all honesty - unless I play Hippus

...actually I tell a lie, I'll go down that route before I look at the higher end Archery units

Hah! You got me there. I completely forgot about the archery line. I don't think I've ever built a Marksman. To be honest, though, there can be a compelling reason to go that route. The Marksman promotion can be very strong in the right situations, and it's a new capability for your empire, rather than a less useful variation of an existing capability.

 

[BlankVerse]

I can see it seems redundant. It equivalent to increasing the limit of war chariots from 4 to 8. I would research in the following situations:

I was Hippus
I own the Ride of the Nine Kings
I am Council of Esus
I am Kuriotates, because their centuar knight does get defensive bonuses, unlike thier war chariot equivalent
I am Infernal, because Death Nights sound cool

Actually, do all of the top three at once and you're laughing

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Change the "Ride of the Nine Kings" wonder to require Armored Cavalry, then it will be worth researching. For one person anyways.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The Lanun, Clan of Embers, and some other civ I'm forgetting have unique replacements for War Chariots that are actually downgrades from normal WCs. Those civs really want Armored Cavalry.

Meanwhile, there are quite a few Knight UUs and they're all upgrades or sidegrades, if memory serves.

 

[EverNoob]

I'm not sure war tortoise and stoneskin ogres are downgrades per se. Though they aren't real cavalry units in the traditional sense, since they are heavily defensive.

 

[Blackmantle]

@ Keeper_GFA: I beg to differ. I think Armored Cavalry whould be a greath place for a new wonder + perhaps other small perks.

I feel the Mod misses a few more good late-game wonders for various reasons.

Mounted Line is surely not the strongest so nerfing it may be a bad idea (and relocating things from Warhorses to later is definately nerfing.).

Also i think the biggest bottleneck is horse-archers. They seem way to week in comparison to other techs of simmilar place / costs (akin to the archery-line...). Some possible ideas for improvement have been around somewhere else for a bit of time.

War Chariots are cheap to research and rock-solid so its not a problem with the Warhorses Tech but 2 others.



Otherwise have to agree to BlankVerse's list and add civs that tech very fast in the late-game as (for example) the Sidar which have good reasons to go down the mounted line anyways as well... (Embers is another example for different reasons.)

And ogres are rather on par if for different reasons (mainly because melee units are more interesting / easier to improve and because Embers has no real Bottleneck at Stirups.). I feel they have actually been stronger than War Chariots before the nerf to 2 movement (especially because they were rather easy to get in Marnoks modmod pre 0.34.). And might be again if Stoneskin might be changed to permanent.
Even though Embers has a harder time reaching Warhorses in the first place.
Also if i not totally disremember those goblins might upgrade to them via Wolf-riders. So beastcatching Stoneskins are not unthinkable of later in the game.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

@ Keeper_GFA: I beg to differ. I think Armored Cavalry whould be a greath place for a new wonder + perhaps other small perks.

No need to beg.

My point isn't to nerf the mounted line, I'm just saying that this one very simple change would definitely make the Armored Cavalry tech completely worthwhile, which was the point of the OP.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed that this tech is not really appealing right now and could use a buff, and agreed that some endgame-ish techs look rather dull ( i.e. give access to a new unit, nothing else ) and a couple added things would make things more interesting.

btw, why do horsemen not get weapon upgrades? are you telling me they are using wooden swords ?

 

[Blackmantle]

Balance i whould say. They are on par with most Tier 2s (especially for Hippus and most defender-civs). With Weapons at horseback-riding they might be a tad bit to hefty (all regular early Tier 2s seem quite powerful to me allready.). Chariots work out well a tad bit later and allow for those...

(They also get +50% combat vs. Archers so are ok for even attacking cities defended by those under simmilar conditions / experience at least if you factor in withdrawl. If they whould get the same acess to weapons, chariots might be rather pointless / even weaker overall.)

Honestly, until trade the mounted line seems ok-good more or less (because it also offers some other neat things. Problem is the later techs and their dullness save perhaps Warhorses.).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I guess you're right, but I'd still prefer if they were weaker ( say, 3 strength instead of 4 ) and could use metal weapons. actually, I think the same about the recon line really. I just dislike thinking that a unit is using wooden swords and spears while it could be using mithril

 

[zup]

I defend my cities with melee, not archers. Archers are almost worthless because they don't get march, which really makes melee shine over everything else. And marksmen/crossbowmen are not as interesting as phalanx/berserkers ... let alone immortals.

So it does not matter how many anti archers the enemy has. Only hippus cavalry is worthwhile imo.

 

[smusebaer]

Archer get enchanted Arrows, Scouts Poison, and Melee Troops entchanted blade. There is no spell Buff for the mounted line. (I would say forget the treetop defence and give nature a buffspell for animals and mounted units. It could reduse movement penalties and give 10% str).

To make a tech more interesting, a simple Methode would be to make it cheaper.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

It is helpful for those who don't own the resources for the weapons promotions. If you don't have mithril, you can still use mounted or recon units without always being at a significant disadvantage.