Arms sales?

[geonnyboy]

Personally I like playing the peace game, but I know the benefits of war (especially when it’s between all of my opponents.) But I find that when I want to help out the “loser” (in order to make the war longer, which benefits me) without actually entering into the war itself, the best I can do is gift money and techs, of which (9 times out of 10) the AI will usually squander. So I thought of an idea for Civ 4, arms sales.

Through this, it would be possible to sell military units to another Civ similar to how workers can be sold between Civs. This, of course, won’t be possible until a certain tech is achieved; I was thinking somewhere in the industrial ages (similar to when America was selling arms to Europe pre and during WWI) and would allow a less advanced Civ access to advanced weaponry (provided they have the cash.)

I think it would be a neat idea and would add a whole new dimension to being a “peaceful” Civ. (my first smiley!) What do you guys think?

 

[Brohz]

I agree. I am a bulder myself and i hate to sit in the later game just making wealth and some units when i have built everything while the warmongers conquer the wholw world and finally attacking me. It would be great to help smaller civs to defend by giving them superior weapons than his attacker's (i ussualy have a tech lead in the late game). This way i could use my production power to keep the entire world in constant war, and i think this would make diplomacy much more interesting, as the player would have to keep an eye in the world situation at all times.

 

[Flak Fox]

I agree too, but WWI is a little too late for arms sales I think. I cannot think up a good example, but I know it happened at least a few hundred years before WWI.

 

[dh_epic]

Even Rome could buy Barbarians to help defend themselves.

A little different from buying weapons in particular... but buying national defence from another nation is as old as empire itself.

 

[DBear]

You could do this in Civ2.

 

[geonnyboy]

Wow you could? I started playing at Civ 3. Maybe I should look for a copy of Civ 2.

 

[El Loco]

Mercenaries started fighting profesionally as early as the 16th century so they could make the tech earlier.

 

[Yuri2356]

Perhaps about the same time as Feudalism? That could work out well.

 

[Exel]

You should only be able to sell troops, but to lease them aswell. You could turn over the control of some of your troops to your ally, but they'd still be your troops, and you could regain their control any time.

 

[rhialto]

You should only be able to sell troops, but to lease them aswell. You could turn over the control of some of your troops to your ally, but they'd still be your troops, and you could regain their control any time.

The potential for abuse in this case would make RoP rape look tame

 

[Moonsinger]

Personally I like playing the peace game, but I know the benefits of war (especially when it’s between all of my opponents.) But I find that when I want to help out the “loser” (in order to make the war longer, which benefits me) without actually entering into the war itself, the best I can do is gift money and techs, of which (9 times out of 10) the AI will usually squander. So I thought of an idea for Civ 4, arms sales.

If you really want a peace game, you shouldn't be selling arms anyway. Realistically, you won't be able to live in peace for long because most people would consider you as their enemy if you sell arms to their enemy. Look at Switzerland, peaceful nation, no arms dealing, no nation on earth would want to declare war on them.

That would raise another question: how can you sell arms in secret? Unless you have Replication technology (like in Star Trek), you can't possibly hide the origin of the weapons. That kind of tech level is beyond the scope of Civ (unless the game continue after the space age). Even with Replication technology and cloak transport ship, there would always be a chance that you will get caught...that also mean a chance for someone to declare war on you.

 

[geonnyboy]

I'm not sure leasing would work. The underlying premise with leasing is that eventually the product will be returned to the seller. When I make military units I make them with the realization that I will lose some of them, that's the way war is. If you were to lease your units, what would happen if one of your units under someone else's control were to lose a unit? Would they have to pay full price? Would there be an insurance premium? I think that would complicate things way too much. Simply buying and selling should be fine.

 

[geonnyboy]

That would raise another question: how can you sell arms in secret? Unless you have Replication technology (like in Star Trek), you can't possibly hide the origin of the weapons. That kind of tech level is beyond the scope of Civ (unless the game continue after the space age). Even with Replication technology and cloak transport ship, there would always be a chance that you will get caught...that also mean a chance for someone to declare war on you.

Actually I thought about this a bit, I guess it would be hard to hide if you’re the undisputed tech leader, but if there are multiple nations at the same tech level you could hide it realistically. However I thought maybe a little more risk in arms dealing might be needed. Maybe put into place 1 in 10 chance that upon the destruction of a sold unit, the attacker finds out the origin of the unit. Like one of the advisors appears after the unit is destroyed saying "Our military intelligence has discovered that this (military unit) was made by the treacherous (country)." This would foul relations between the country who sold the unit in the first place and the country that destroyed the unit. This could prevent abuse of the tactic, and give the player much more risk/reward to consider before instigating war through the sales of units.

If you really want a peace game, you shouldn't be selling arms anyway. Realistically, you won't be able to live in peace for long because most people would consider you as their enemy if you sell arms to their enemy. Look at Switzerland, peaceful nation, no arms dealing, no nation on earth would want to declare war on them.

Yeah, I guess, but it’s just fun causing a little mayhem.

Besides I’m all for invading Switzerland. Imagine all the chocolate you’d get!

 

[Yuri2356]

Unless you have Replication technology (like in Star Trek), you can't possibly hide the origin of the weapons.

Well, you better tell that to all those Columbians who manage to get drugs across the US border! It's easy to smuggle things, especialy if you're well funded. And the weapons could be made without markings, or disguised as weapons already used by that nation. Sort of a Trojan horse thing:

Ha, those foolish Chineese are protecting their city with riflemen! They will be no match for my mighty INFANTRY!
SUPRISE!
Hey, where'd you get those M-16s?
We, er, found them!
An M-16, in CHINA???
Yes, is that any stranger than Egyptians with '03 Springfield Rifles?
Wait a second, something's not right here....

 

[dh_epic]

Plenty of nations sell arms while at peace.

For example, say I'm a democratic country who hates a communist country. I supply arms to a radical religious fundamentalist to help fight "godless communism". In fact, I give them top notch training, say, that of the CIA. With one or two soldiers with rifles, they can take out a million dollar helicopter, and gradually erode the economy of that country, and watch it collapse a few years later. ... all while I'm at peace with the world.

And then they turn around 15 years later and use that training against me... say, their knowledge of flying my country's planes.

Guess it makes you think twice about "supprorting the lesser of two evils" or "dividing and conquering". But hey, it's definitely a strategy that should be available in Civ.