Army or Adam Smith's?

[Park Ranger]

Got a fun game going with the Carthaginians. Continents, standard map, emperor level, space race and diplomatic victories disabled.

It's 1020 AD, the Middle Ages are coming to a close. Just came out of a revolution to become a democracy, when the Ottomans suddenly switch from Magellan's to Adam Smith's , which I'd been building for a while but with diplomat see that Osman will get it 4 turns ahead. There's no way I can beat him to it without a leader.

Then, Osman lands a few knights on my shores and declares war. I scramble to fight him off and lo and behold my elite knight spawns my FIRST leader of the game.

SO, what do I do? Rush the Trading Co., or create an army to get the Heroic Epic and soon the Military Academy? I'm not really worried about getting the army together for defending against Ottomans, but since I pretty much have to go Domination or Conquest victory, I figure I'll want armies eventually. I can switch to Shakespeare's Theatre before Ottomans force me to abandon Adam Smith's, so I won't lose the shields, but REALLY, that hardly makes me feel better. Plus, Ottomans are shaping up to be my number one rival, so them having the best (IMO) wonder of the game....

Advice please! I'm leaning towards rushing the Trading Co., but maybe there's something I haven't thought of....

 

[pompeynunn]

I would rush the wonder. That will be worth more to you in the long term than an army immediately. And like you point out, do you really want the Ottomans to have it instead of you?

 

[[GoD]Toxic]

Let them have the wonder and take over the city where it is being build with your new army In that way you will get both

 

[Knightblade pDM]

Toxic is right. Use the leader for the Army and make sure that Elite is fully healed and let him head up the Army, conquer the city that's going to have Smith's after they get it, you'll have your cake and eat it too Good Luck

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by [GoD]Toxic
Let them have the wonder and take over the city where it is being build with your new army In that way you will get both

I cannot agree more, unless this city is very far aways from you. So are you able to capture this city ? if no then rush built adam smith if you have lots of city with marketplace, bank and harbor ( no airport yet ).

 

[jack merchant]

I'd rush the Trading Co. If you're going for domination/conquest, you'll have more than enough opportunities for leaders anyway. The savings from Smith's will allow you to have a bigger army and research faster. Also, it also applies to stock exchanges and commercial docks, so the savings will only get bigger as time goes by.

 

[morkaphi]

If you're not prebuilding something with a city building the palace, you may want to switch the Smith's to palace, then use the leader to rush the Smith's in another city. To me, Smith's is one of the musts. (Big bucks! ) Then switch to Shakespeare's Theatre/Magellan's, since you can do that without losing shields.

Don't let Osman get anything done... His Sipahi's are coming soon.

 

[Park Ranger]

Originally posted by Knightblade pDM
Toxic is right. Use the leader for the Army and make sure that Elite is fully healed and let him head up the Army, conquer the city that's going to have Smith's after they get it, you'll have your cake and eat it too Good Luck

Yah, I like that idea! Trouble is they're on a separate continent (so I'd have to send the army overseas with no units in it), and I still have work to do on my own (Egyptians and Indians, not much of a worry but will take some time).

Also the builder in me is screaming to get some more improvements - I've just doubled in size by taking out the Romans (never got their iron hooked up ) and don't even have marketplaces and libraries everywhere. I'm afraid by the time I get a start on the Ottomans it'll be tanks and bombers time.

@morkaphi - advice I'd already taken to heart. I'm about 30% into Smith's in my capital, but I could easily switch to Shakespeare's, possibly even Newton's, and put Smith's somewhwere else. My kind of thinking!

Well, I figure I've still got about 10 turns (can't spy on Ottomans anymore since we're at war) to see if I can put together a navy and invasion force....at that point I'll have to commit to trying to take it from them or use the leader to rush the wonder.

 

[Paradox]

IMHO, your first leader should ALWAYS be used for an army. You can build armies after that, but without that first army, you are stuck. In my games, a leader is very rare, until I after I produce my first army. Adam Smith's isn't the Hoover Dam or the UN, and you can always take it by force.

 

[DaveMcW]

The Heroic Epic doesn't pay off until you get FOUR more leaders. Don't make an army unless you really need armies or you plan on getting many many leaders in the game.

 

[peace_frog]

Personally, I consider Smith's a valuable wonder but not a must have so I would make the army and switch to shakespear's if I were going for a conquest victory. It isn't because that army will be so valuable in itself, but it gives you the ability to make more without a leader. As I am not a warmonger I only ever use one leader to make an army. After that, it is a waste of sheilds for me.

But my advice is jaded since I would use the leader to cement ToE, Hoovers or the UN. I also don't mind an AI getting smiths. If I can get ToE, I can sling shot my way into the tech lead even on emperor. In that case their income is really my income when they ship it over in gpt trades. But I guess that wouldn't work in a conquest victory, which ain't usually my angle. So, umm I guess my input isn't all that relevant...

 

[Moulton]

Depends on the size of your empire. I tend to build large empires, and so for me Adam Smith is not a must, but desierable. My current empire costs 3400+ per turn, with 471 units in the armed forces. A few hundred more for Market Places and banks in every city, doesn't sound like much, but is about the same as 10% for luxuries -- which I am also paying. Another 10%, and my research goes down a notch. The effect of that is droppin from new tech in 4-5 turns to 6-7 turns. That takes a serious toll over time.
I have only had 1 GL in 500yers of war --- and used him for the Forbidden palace. I would like to have some armies.. but...

 

[Scyphax]

I would create an army, get a victory and swap the wonder for the Heroic Epic.

 

[Henry_X]

I would probably choose army too, and try to make the most of the shield invested in the trading Co, if possible use them for another wonder or the Heroic epic.

The Heroic Epic doesn't pay off until you get FOUR more leaders. Don't make an army unless you really need armies or you plan on getting many many leaders in the game.

Dave , I think you mistaken here , can you explain what you mean ?

 

[DaveMcW]

Without HE:
16 elite wins + current leader = 2 leaders for rushing wonders
32 elite wins + current leader = 3 leaders for rushing wonders
48 elite wins + current leader = 4 leaders for rushing wonders

With HE:
12 elite wins = 1 leader for rushing wonders
24 elite wins = 2 leaders for rushing wonders
36 elite wins = 3 leaders for rushing wonders
48 elite wins = 4 leaders for rushing wonders

 

[peace_frog]

Dave, your calculation assumes the only reason to use the leader to make the army is to get the heroic epic. It does not assign any value to the army you create or the ability to make more. Personally I fall in the middle of the road on armies but I think they need to be assinged some sort of value. So I would amend your statement to say

Using your first leader to make an army just to get the Heroic Epic doesn't pay off in terms of wonders until you get FOUR more leaders.

 

[Park Ranger]

Well, I opted to rush build Adam Smith's, and hold out for another leader. Basra, the Ottoman city building the wonder, was too far away for me to reasonably expect to capture in the near future. I did hold off until I had Free Artistry, and put Adam Smith's in a whole other city and so got two wonders out of the whole deal. Shake's won't mean much until I get sanitation, though, and since its a close tech race I'll be focusing on Scientific Method first.

This must be the first time I didn't use my first leader to make an army, and I may regret it.

@DaveMcW - I see your point about the leaders, but one thing you don't mention is that in the 2nd scenario you could also be building armies with the Military Academy. My current game I've played far enough to be pretty sure I'll get Universal Suffrage, so after that there's really only two wonders I'll want, and as long as I keep the research up both the ToE and Hoover's shouldn't be a problem. (Diplo victory is disabled in my game so UN doesn't matter)

Thanks all for the advice - really I'm just kicking myself for a) having a revolution while I was in the middle of building Adam Smith's and b) setting research to Free Artistry when I still didn't have physics or metallurgy. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Now I'm in a war of attrition with my neighbours the Egyptians, not losing ground but only conquered 1 city in 300 years. Dismal.

 

[Henry_X]

Never looked at it that way , but like Peace_frog said you don't attribute anything to the existing army. Which , unless it's defeated in the first fight has already did , imo, one of it's most important tasks making it possible to build the HE and the military academy.

More farfetched it also helps to get the pentagon earlier. And I'm not sure about this one but doesn't it count in your military power ?

 

[Dr Jimbo]

OK, so I'm a bit late with the advice, but at least you got to rush a wonder from scratch with the Leader rather than just finish off one that's 3/4 done already. There's nothing worse than deciding you'll probably beat the competition to a Wonder (everything being equal, the AI is pretty poor at emphasising production), saving your leader for the Hoover Dam or whatever, and missing by a few turns.
At least if the first leader is used as an army, HE and MA are both available to switch to. Deliberate or accidental bit of balance from Firaxis?

 

[Hurricane]

I'd also build Adam Smith's anytime before the army. That wonder is one of the must-haves, especially when going for domination/conquest, when you will have lots of corrupt cities where you still have to build marketplaces.