artillery....what's the point? And other ?'s

[Smackrazor]

Ok...I give up. Artillery units (and anything else that can bombard) are absolutely pointless unless you have a stack of like 10 of them.

I liked the direct attack value of these types of units like in CivII much better.

Frequently, in many of my games I come up against a tough nut to crack....a walled city on a hill for instance, with veteran or elite defenders. So I send in the heavy hitters....the latest example is my Zulu Impi's escorting 4 catapults to attack the Iriqouis capital. It's a size 3 city (I'd pillaged everything around it and fortified units on most of their tiles to deprive them of the land).

I start bombarding. For the next 4 turns, none of my 4 catapults did anything. "Bombardment failed" every time. All of a sudden the Iriqouis have like 5 spearmen in their city....I love that...Insta build units....anyways, I finally get my artillery to take 1 bar off 2 spearmen. I use archers to take em out. Pointless. Next turn theres a whole bunch more spearmen....the only other city they had was 2 tiles south, situated on a hill, with 2 mountain tiles, all the rest was water, and it's a size 1. Nice production there....able to pump out spearmen every turn with only 1 shield.

So I send another 2 catapults down. Nothing. 6 catapults, and every turn I was lucky if I hit once, and then only took 1 life bar.

I gotta ask....what is the point to these units and the bombard ability? In other games, in the modern age, I used to always use the bombard ability of massed battleships...mostly to no avail.

These types of units used to make or break a lot of battles in Civ2, now in this game, theyre not even worth wasting shields on.

I hate the random number rolls...theyre rediculous. I also miss the firepower rating units in Civ2 had...in one of my recent games, an AI regular galley sunk my veteran Galleon. In another, an AI regular ironclad sunk my veteran Carrier. My Elite units getting wasted attacking regular units on grassland tiles....much of the rolls in this game just flat out dont make sense. I dont suppose theres a patch or mod that tweaks these insanely inaccurate and wholly unrealstic numbers is there? I just get real annoyed when my Elite musketman who is fortified on a mountain gets wasted by an AI regular swordsman.

And why is it the AI seems to get promotions much more than you do? In the last 5 games I played, I chose militaristic civs and started all kinds of conflicts....and NEVER got a Leader, even though I got quite a few elite units.

I havnt delved into the intricate nuances of this game like some of you have...I have no idea what formulas the game uses, but I sure wish I had a better understanding of them, because most of what the AI does is just insane.

Another thing it does is send a scout way out in the middle of nowhere, and all of a sudden, theres a settler and a spearman...that couldnt possibly have covered the terrain it did in the time it did. Or I'll have a conscript warrior I got from a hut fortified far away in a spot that looks sweet for a future city when I get that far....not a damn AI unit anywhere to be found (I'd check every turn) but as soon as I start sending a settler up that way, oh look! the AI is too!

Oh, one last thing....why does the AI always build its cities right next to each other so they cant expand beyond their initial square? I HATE THAT! Because they always screw up MY cities, even though there's an entire open landmass right next to us,,,they gotta send in their units into MY area....even crossing (or trying to anyways) my heartland...and its not like theres a luxury or strategic resource in that particular area.

Sorry....just ranting mostly....I started playing on regent level, and I just cant see how you folks can play, and enjoy, the higher difficulties. The AI builds all wonders way before it should be able to...like Hanging Gardens in 2000 BC...Colossus like 4 turns into the game....Oracle shortly after...and yet they have a dozen cities already...why cant they just make the AI have to stay within the same rules and parameters as human players?

Gonna go and play some more. I'm a glutton for punishment

 

[rysingsun]

(1) absolutely pointless unless you have a stack of like 10 of them.

later in the game i like to have about 100 artillery. catapults are weak and you are right .. without a stack of 10 they dont do much. even among artillery lovers many do not like catapults.

(2) I liked the direct attack value of these types of units like in CivII much better.

and you have it. the large majority of land units have direct attack value.

(3) I start bombarding. For the next 4 turns, none of my 4 catapults did anything.

see (1) above.

(4) I used to always use the bombard ability of massed battleships...mostly to no avail.

battleships are way too expensive and slow to be effective bombarders. the best use for their bombard ability is to redline ships so that you do not lose your own ships trying to sink them.

(5) I hate the random number rolls...theyre rediculous... I just get real annoyed when my Elite musketman who is fortified on a mountain gets wasted by an AI regular swordsman.

if not random then what is it you want? a chess game? or to win every single battle where you have the more modern unit? if the superior unit always won then the game would be purely a technology race with no other aspect of the game playing any significant role. borrrrrring ...

(6) And why is it the AI seems to get promotions much more than you do?

probably because if a unit wins two battles on the same turn then promotion is automatic. if you have a habit of attacking cities with too few units to take the city then you will cause this very thing to happen on a regular basis.

(7) In the last 5 games I played, I chose militaristic civs and started all kinds of conflicts....and NEVER got a Leader, even though I got quite a few elite units.

because you dont use bombard units one of the very powerful benefits of redlining units with artillery before attacking is that you get lots of leaders. do not use your elites for anything except attacking redlined units. you will see then that you accumulate many of them and get many more leaders from them. i lose approximately one elite unit for each elite that is promoted to leader in most of my games. ive had games with over 30 armies. it is an art worth learning.

(8) Colossus like 4 turns into the game....

i would LOVE to see a .sav on this

 

[LoopyLewis]

Ok...I give up. Artillery units (and anything else that can bombard) are absolutely pointless unless you have a stack of like 10 of them.

yep - I usually have 30 or so oh and they aren't useless if you have 30 or so (trust me).

Agree that catapults suck though - they really do suck. Cannons are the first decent artillery (but I'd still take 30 or so, just in case )

 

[Willem]

Ok...I give up. Artillery units (and anything else that can bombard) are absolutely pointless unless you have a stack of like 10 of them.

That is the point. Once you have that many, you can pretty much just walk through any opposition. If anything, they're overpowered IMO. Once you get a bunch on the offensive, the enemy forces crumble. The key to success in Civ 3 is just sheer numbers.

 

[vmxa]

"Smackrazor Ok...I give up. Artillery units (and anything else that can bombard) are absolutely pointless unless you have a stack of like 10 of them."

"Frequently, in many of my games I come up against a tough nut to crack....a walled city on a hill for instance, with veteran or elite defenders. So I send in the heavy hitters....the latest example is my Zulu Impi's escorting 4 catapults to attack the Iriqouis capital. It's a size 3 city (I'd pillaged everything around it and fortified units on most of their tiles to deprive them of the land)."

Cats are not wonderful, but they can be very useful to up your kill ratio, especially on defense. I would probably rather make extra units and attack directly, especially with a 2 move unit like Impi.

"I start bombarding. For the next 4 turns, none of my 4 catapults did anything. "Bombardment failed" every time. All of a sudden the Iriqouis have like 5 spearmen in their city....I love that...Insta build units....anyways, I finally get my artillery to take 1 bar off 2 spearmen. I use archers to take em out. Pointless. Next turn theres a whole bunch more spearmen....the only other city they had was 2 tiles south, situated on a hill, with 2 mountain tiles, all the rest was water, and it's a size 1. Nice production there....able to pump out spearmen every turn with only 1 shield."

What type of game is this? Is it an AP or a mod? Spears are 20 shields in a std game and a 1 shield town needs 20 turns, unless this is above Regent. Are they in a GA? They cannot draft or go into Mob in the AA.

How do you know they did ot have those 5 spears all along? Unless you pinged the defenders and did not see any full health units.


"I gotta ask....what is the point to these units and the bombard ability? In other games, in the modern age, I used to always use the bombard ability of massed battleships...mostly to no avail."

Yup ships are not much better at bombardment than cats/treb and to some degree cannons. Artillery are much better.

"These types of units used to make or break a lot of battles in Civ2, now in this game, theyre not even worth wasting shields on."

One of the many problems with Civ2, a game I loved, but was too easy.

"I hate the random number rolls...theyre rediculous. I also miss the firepower rating units in Civ2 had...in one of my recent games, an AI regular galley sunk my veteran Galleon. In another, an AI regular ironclad sunk my veteran Carrier. My Elite units getting wasted attacking regular units on grassland tiles....much of the rolls in this game just flat out dont make sense. I dont suppose theres a patch or mod that tweaks these insanely inaccurate and wholly unrealstic numbers is there? I just get real annoyed when my Elite musketman who is fortified on a mountain gets wasted by an AI regular swordsman."

Won't argue you with you on that one. The RNG is flaky and I as well as others did suggest FP be brought back. The thing is Friaxis wanted obsolete units to be viable and there you have it.

"And why is it the AI seems to get promotions much more than you do? In the last 5 games I played, I chose militaristic civs and started all kinds of conflicts....and NEVER got a Leader, even though I got quite a few elite units."

It can happen, but is not the norm. Want lots of leaders, play AW you will have them to burn. I have had them by the scores. Why, because you have hundreds of battles, not dozens.

"I havnt delved into the intricate nuances of this game like some of you have...I have no idea what formulas the game uses, but I sure wish I had a better understanding of them, because most of what the AI does is just insane."

Not insane, just a lack of better options in the decison tree.

"Another thing it does is send a scout way out in the middle of nowhere, and all of a sudden, theres a settler and a spearman...that couldnt possibly have covered the terrain it did in the time it did. Or I'll have a conscript warrior I got from a hut fortified far away in a spot that looks sweet for a future city when I get that far....not a damn AI unit anywhere to be found (I'd check every turn) but as soon as I start sending a settler up that way, oh look! the AI is too!"

First why bother forting a unit out in the toolies? Second you cannot see previously exposed tiles. They are in the fog of war and could be moving and you not see them. You can only see changes to a given tile if it is in your range of sight.

Third the AI knows what the disposion of all units is and what is on the tile, even without the tech. IOW it knows oil will be there later and wants it now.

"Oh, one last thing....why does the AI always build its cities right next to each other so they cant expand beyond their initial square? I HATE THAT! Because they always screw up MY cities, even though there's an entire open landmass right next to us,,,they gotta send in their units into MY area....even crossing (or trying to anyways) my heartland...and its not like theres a luxury or strategic resource in that particular area."

As I said they know that oil/al/ur, whatever will be there later, you don't.

"Sorry....just ranting mostly....I started playing on regent level, and I just cant see how you folks can play, and enjoy, the higher difficulties. The AI builds all wonders way before it should be able to...like Hanging Gardens in 2000 BC...Colossus like 4 turns into the game....Oracle shortly after...and yet they have a dozen cities already...why cant they just make the AI have to stay within the same rules and parameters as human players?"

That is an over statement. I have not seen the Colossus but that early even on Sid. I would expect the Colossus to be around 550BC at Regent. At sid you can easily see it by 3150BC, but hey they only pay 40%.

You should not waste time building the HG anyway. At low levels you do not need it and at high levels you can't get it.

Most play at higher levels as the others are just too easy. Want to make Monarch or Emperor a bit of a struggle use AW. Better yet play deity or sid.

Once you learn to manage an empire you will find Regent to be a level you could make as many wonders as you please.

 

[Mirc]

I agree with Smackrazor. If I need 30 cats (or cannons, or artillery), why wouldn't I build units with strong offense instead of them? They're going to make much more damage. Yes, it exists the risk that they die, while these ones can't die, but with 30 Swordsman (Legionaries, Immortals) or Cavs or Tanks I can destory any existing city. So, what's the point?

 

[vmxa]

For 30, I would agree. If however you bring 5 or so to an attack on a city with strong defenders, it will make a difference most of the time.

Six calvs will not take down a metro with 3 infantry, but they could with 6 arties. 12 calvs may do it, but may well not. The good news is those arties can be used for other things as well.

 

[warpstorm]

So stack at least 10 of them.

 

[gunkulator]

The case for catapults is pretty poor. You need a fairly large stack of any artillery unit in order to be effective. Who has the time to build a bunch of cats in the AA? Also, they are not needed as much. In the AA the offense actually has the advantage. Either you are attacking with A=3 swords or A=2 horses with retreat against D=2 spears. Catapults are good for holding back incursions into your land. Often the AI will retreat if you knock off a hp or two.

The first really decent artillery unit is the trebuchet. Bombard of 6 against a typical defender of either D=3 pikes or D=4 muskets when your best attacker is A=4 Med Inf or those expensive Knights. 30 shields for a treb is easier to come by in the MA than 20 shields for a cat in the AA.

 

[Willem]

I agree with Smackrazor. If I need 30 cats (or cannons, or artillery), why wouldn't I build units with strong offense instead of them? They're going to make much more damage. Yes, it exists the risk that they die, while these ones can't die, but with 30 Swordsman (Legionaries, Immortals) or Cavs or Tanks I can destory any existing city. So, what's the point?

For one thing, 30 Catapults are a lot cheaper than Swordsman. And having that many bombard units almost guarantees that you won't lose any of your melee units when their turn comes up to attack. So in the long run you'll be able to build a much a larger military since you won't have to keep replacing units that get destroyed.

 

[Mirc]

Your explaination is great. Maybe now I'll learn how to use them. But until cannons I don't think I'll need them (maybe just to upgrade).

 

[mrpaulie]

Welcome to the learning curve.lol

 

[mrpaulie]

Artillery is intended to weaken a fortified position . Its a whole lot easier for your invading force to take a city that has just been shelled by 30 cannons for 3 turns especially if its a big city with defense bonus. As far a building cannons or artillery, its easy to upgrade your pile of crap catapults (thats the only reason I would ever build a catapult anyway -with the intention of upgrade later. My favorite way to build artillery though is to let the AI do it for me. Capturing a city with 4-5 cannons is a nice addition to the ones you have already built. Kind of like collecting stamps, then, when you get 30 or so its time to rock and roll.

 

[Willem]

My favorite way to build artillery though is to let the AI do it for me. Capturing a city with 4-5 cannons is a nice addition to the ones you have already built. Kind of like collecting stamps, then, when you get 30 or so its time to rock and roll.

You can't really count on the AI though, it isn't very good at using bombard units and doesn't generally build them all that much.

 

[Marsden]

I'm surprized to be saying this myself, but, in my last few games trying against emperor and deity I found catapults to be helpful. I'll explain. If you can only knock one hp off of the regular spearmen your swordsmen have a better chance, might not seem like much but it does help. And then there's the situation where your iron dries up No more Swords besides the ones you have, they become very valuable, indeed. It also depends on your combat style. If you do not mind sending in human waves to certain death than you can beat down just about anyplace with enough units. Alternatively, if you don't like casualties, you can soften your targets with bombardment. I prefer the latter. It can also be beneficial to knock the city itself down under size 6 and destroy some improvements, although many misses are long and boring, it's true.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

I have never found catapaults to be very useful, but the Trebuchets in C3C seem to do some good damage.

As pointed out, you need lots of artillery in a stack for them to be useful. If you get greedy, and try to take to much territory quickly with fast moving units, you'll pay for it. You will lose the units, and have to build more, and lose the turns it takes to do so, both for building replacements AND getting them to the front.

A very good strategy once you get to the industrial age is to have a stack of doom with 20 Artillery pieces, several Cavalry, and a whole bunch of Infantry for defending the stack and garrisoning the cities you take. The AI will burn up its own Cavalry on the Infantry in the stack, while you advance slowly but surely into their core. So what if you are only moving one tile per turn? You will take each city you are after, almost every time. Drive right into the enemy core cities, and you will be suprised at how quickly they weaken after you take 5-6 of their best cities. Bombard the !#*% out of the enemy city when you are right next to it, then attack with Cavalry next, as they can retreat from battle if necessary. If you use up all the Cavalry, then use the Infantry next, as they have the same attack. Move all units into the city, let them heal a bit, and move on. It's an unbeatable formula.

Blitzkrieg is not really doable until you get Tanks and Bombers. You will want to balance the number of arty you have against the number of Bombers you will get later, as Bombers are superior - no sense in fighting WWI style when you can bomb. If you are playing at zero science, however, and can't be sure when you will be able to get Flight, then build even more Artillery.

 

[tR1cKy]

Pointless. Next turn theres a whole bunch more spearmen....the only other city they had was 2 tiles south, situated on a hill, with 2 mountain tiles, all the rest was water, and it's a size 1. Nice production there....able to pump out spearmen every turn with only 1 shield.

The AS is still in despotism and is poprushing units like mad. A good tr1ck to avoid this (supposing you own the tech) is to gift them with Republic or Monarchy. They fall instantly in anarchy, and so they can't poprush nor moneyrush. At this point, you can start kicking donkeys.

 

[Prometheus_666]

Smackrazor, I agree fully with everything you wrote!!!!!

Those are all my gripes with Civ III also! It's too damn hard as the AI Civs simply do NOT adhere to the limitations of my Civ.

VMXA:

Cats are not wonderful, but they can be very useful to up your kill ratio, especially on defense. I would probably rather make extra units and attack directly, especially with a 2 move unit like Impi.

They are quite useless and a waste of shileds. I don't know why Firaxis even included them personally.

How do you know they did ot have those 5 spears all along? Unless you pinged the defenders and did not see any full health units.

No way man. I have seen Civs miraculously build haff a dozen units quick quick and send them all over to me from cities of 1 pop. Literally out of nowhere this mass of AI units will appear.

And my Swordsman ALWAYS loose to their weaker units. Barracks and all. WTH?!

Why must I be 2 techs ahead of them in units to win (and I still loose)? Why is their Archer much better than mine? Why does their Hoplite attack and defeat my Elite Swordsman?

The answer is play balancing. If Civ II was too easy, Firaxis made Civ III TOO HARD.

Third the AI knows what the disposion of all units is and what is on the tile, even without the tech. IOW it knows oil will be there later and wants it now.

So that's why with a HUGE mass of land to their south they keep sending settlers past my borders to the land I pretty much have? So this is why they encroach?

Because somehow, they just "know" what will be there later?

And this is a KNOWN ISSUE? How in the f*** can this be fair?

 

[Willem]

They are quite useless and a waste of shileds. I don't know why Firaxis even included them personally.

You just don't know how to use them properly. They are actually to powerful if you have lots of them. Capturing enemy cities becomes a breeze and you can just waltz through another civ's empire using them effectively.

No way man. I have seen Civs miraculously build haff a dozen units quick quick and send them all over to me from cities of 1 pop. Literally out of nowhere this mass of AI units will appear.

The AI does not have the abilty to create units out of thin air. It either has to build them or rush their production. If you were in Monarchy and had the cash, you could pop out a unit every turn as well. There's no mystery to it.

And my Swordsman ALWAYS loose to their weaker units. Barracks and all. WTH?!

Why must I be 2 techs ahead of them in units to win (and I still loose)? Why is their Archer much better than mine? Why does their Hoplite attack and defeat my Elite Swordsman?

The answer is play balancing. If Civ II was too easy, Firaxis made Civ III TOO HARD.

No, it's just bad luck.

So that's why with a HUGE mass of land to their south they keep sending settlers past my borders to the land I pretty much have? So this is why they encroach?

Because somehow, they just "know" what will be there later?

And this is a KNOWN ISSUE? How in the f*** can this be fair?

Well if you don't like it, you could always play Civ 4. That ability has been eliminated and the AI is just as blind as the human player.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

No way man. I have seen Civs miraculously build haff a dozen units quick quick and send them all over to me from cities of 1 pop. Literally out of nowhere this mass of AI units will appear.

And my Swordsman ALWAYS loose to their weaker units. Barracks and all. WTH?!

Why must I be 2 techs ahead of them in units to win (and I still loose)? Why is their Archer much better than mine? Why does their Hoplite attack and defeat my Elite Swordsman?

The answer is play balancing. If Civ II was too easy, Firaxis made Civ III TOO HARD.

If your units always lose, consider bombing the enemy units before you attack.