Artillery

However, if the system you talked about was used, then it would be unfair to the opposing army since the artillery unit (or units in most cases) is constantly bombarding and dwindling their troops and they can't do anything about it. That means that their army would end up very weak and unable to succesfully fight the enemy.

So if something was introduced to make bombardment more risky, it would be okay? Personally I would like horse archers etc. to be able to "flank" the enemy and attack catapults directly. This would cause casualties among catapults, something that was rare in Civ III, which made the system in that game unbalanced IMO.
 
So if something was introduced to make bombardment more risky, it would be okay? Personally I would like horse archers etc. to be able to "flank" the enemy and attack catapults directly. This would cause casualties among catapults, something that was rare in Civ III, which made the system in that game unbalanced IMO.

I would go for something like that. I have the notion (maybe wrong) that most siege stuff is great at sieges, but mostly a sitting duck in the field -- even equal for equal, and as a cursory example, infantry should be able to take out a artillery garrison with some damage to itself, as infantry is trained to do that, and artillery garrisons are mostly trained to feed, use and carry the weapon instead.

So I would trade attack at a distance for less defense capability.

Moreover, these sorts of units tend to be unmovable until hooked to the horses or trucks.

(BTW, if there were a tactical game, in which I could set up the units and review a few tactical notions, you bet I'd be playing it too. (Hint: Do you know of a good tactical game? :lol: ))

The notion set forth by Breunor ("Shooting at a distance out of harm's way because of its range and howitzers and morers's abiltiy to fire using high trajectories. However, it is not true for earlier artillery unless they had a huge tactical advantage (height advantage). For instance, in combat, cannon used to be put in the front often to avoid hitting the sides own troops. ") is very interesting and, AFAIK, correct. I don't think the Romans had much artillery, but hey, a catapult is pre-gunpowder, ancient artillery. Right.

Given all this, it would not be impossible at all to take out artillery unless protected by a defensive unit such as machine gunners. That wouldn't imbalance the game too much.

On the impact on other units (collateral damage), it happens, at least in movies (eh eh). I normally use extensive preparation fire to make the ennemy a bit mellower much before engagement, and I'm sure everybody does it too. That's a classic one.

Hm and also cavalry to cut out roads around the target, which reminds me I MUST plunder everything in the square before getting at the road, sometimes three turns with my cavalry exposed. As another poster suggested, it's like having to raze the library to get at the barracks.
 
More important, in game terms, you can't 'fix' artillery until you fix normal combat. Since defenders have the advantage in picking rocks-paper-scissors, something has to be done to give attackers a chance.

For instance, take two opposing stacks of two swordsmen, two axemen, two archers, two spearmen, and two horse archers. The attacker will get massacred even if the defender didn't get a defensive bonus, as they always get the advantageous defender. Although this isn't a realistic stack, you all know what I mean.
Breunor

Hmmm yes. I hadn't this notion until, recently, I lost four axemen and the half of two swordsmen to two small-city archers. In real life, city garrisons (and fortified troops) do know their place, which makes them grow stronger for some time, but they get inneficient if stationed for more than a few months without going out or, at least, being rotated.
 
The siege weapons consept is totally unrealistic. In the world outside CIV, artillery is deployed in the rear echelons and has no physical contact with the enemy unless it is poorly defended and overrun by enemy forces.

As for balancing gameplay, I find suicide units far more powerful than the fireing units of CIV III. But I do not like the consept.

Artillery is apployed in consentrations to soften up enemy positions at a breake through-points. It was used against fortifications as in the siege of Sebastopol (Germans bombarding Soviets WWII), and against troop consentrations as at the dawn of the battle of Kursk (Soviets bombarding Germans).

If an artillery position is taken by the enemy, the artillery pieces in general are not destroyed (unless made useles by their own crew). This is the reason the Germans had Soviet made artillery to use against the invasion force in France.

I wish we could have the CIV III artillery back.
 
The siege weapons consept is totally unrealistic. In the world outside CIV, artillery is deployed in the rear echelons and has no physical contact with the enemy unless it is poorly defended and overrun by enemy forces.

As for balancing gameplay, I find suicide units far more powerful than the fireing units of CIV III. But I do not like the consept.

Artillery is apployed in consentrations to soften up enemy positions at a breake through-points. It was used against fortifications as in the siege of Sebastopol (Germans bombarding Soviets WWII), and against troop consentrations as at the dawn of the battle of Kursk (Soviets bombarding Germans).

If an artillery position is taken by the enemy, the artillery pieces in general are not destroyed (unless made useles by their own crew). This is the reason the Germans had Soviet made artillery to use against the invasion force in France.

I wish we could have the CIV III artillery back.


Carl,

Your examples are true for MODERN artillery. This isn't true for the artillery until recent times. For instance, there aren't many examples of Medieval artillery bombarding troops, they were usually built at the site for attacking fortifications. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but they generally didn't fight at all in battles. Both bombardment and suicide artillery are just historically incorrect for that period and for ancient warfare.


Breunor
 
They would be overpowered.
 
Breunor is right; artillery is a term for any device used for the discharge of large projectiles in war, and has been around for a few hundred years.

I have not seen any records of non-powder siegeweapons used only against personell. The exception is probably throwing the bodies of people who had died of pest into a besieged fortress as early biological warfare. On the other hand, the swedish king Gustaf Adolph (1594-1632) is among other things remembered for the use of mobile artillery against enemy troops on the battlefield.

In CIV-terms I think it means cannons and artillery should be useable against troops, other siege weapon not.

In modern times though, catapults have been used against personell. In the trenches during WW I, soldiers used small catapults to haul hand granades over no mans land and into enemy trenches. In Warshaw the patriots used improvised catapults to trow molotow cocktails on their German opressors during the uprising in the end phase of WW II.

The CIV siege weapons mirror the German Sturmgeschütz, a kind of crossover between artillery and a tank: artilllery taking direct part in the battle. But I have no example of similar of earlier ages.
 
Thanks Carl V!

Yes, the use of artillery as a constant weapon in battle starts with Gustavus Adolphus, who essentially invented light cannon, light enough to move around with an army and not slow it all down. The Russians invented horse artillery which made it mobile enough to use, and Frederick the Great got his hand on every piece he could.

This is why I distinguish Medieval and ancient, where its use was rare -- the Romans and Byzantines, who were great engineers, used them, but they were rarely a 'big deal' in battle. They simply took too long to set up, so could be used mostly for known set-piece battle.

My point on cannon, thought, whether it was Frederick of Gustavus, is that cannon tends to be a direct fire weapon once the battle started, although thinking of it as 'bombarding' can be correct for pre-battle conditions. It rarely fired from behind when the owning's side's troops were advancing because its trajectory wan't reliably high enough. The exception was, of course, when the cannon could be placed at elevation. Then, they could 'bombard' enemy troops a la Civ III. Indeed, this was and could be so devastating that it rarely happened since most defending commanders weren't dumb enough to let it happen. So, when Washington dragged the cannon to the heights outside of Boston, the British just withdrew instead of fighting and de facto committing suicide.

My point is that cannon DID participate in battle starting with the 17th century. They sometimes bombarded enemy troops at a distance; Napoleon, of course, was very good at this. They had longer range than hand held guns and could bombard set defenses. However, their range wasn't like modern artillery, and once the battle started and your own troops moved forward, its more accurate to view them as direct fire units, and shouldn't be able to bombard form safe distances. Cannons were often captured and/or spiked.

By the time of the US civil war, cannon really didn't have much more range than a rifle, and cannon was most effective defensively (so they could fire at enemy troosp advancing without hitting their own troops) firing cannister, meaning that the cannon was essentially an overgrown shotgun. But they could be tactically decisive, they were powerhouses. So, my take is:

Ancient artillery, sometimes used in battle but it was at most a support arm, important in sieges

Medieval -- Rarely used in battle, but Medieval warfare was dominated by sieges anyway and or course artillery was important.

Gunpowder -- Cannon used tactically in battle, either light cannon of the Swedes or horse cavalry. Very important, but a bombardment type model is probably less accurate than a direct combat arm. Because of the nature of defense, a 'free bombardment' shot may be realsitic if attacked.

Modern -- Fires at long distance, behind the lines. Bombardment is perhaps appropriate (although I dislike how dominant it was in Civ III).

As Karl V points out, the examples he uses are essentially set battle areas, artillery is devastating. So, in WWI, with trench lines, artillery is the dominant weapon and does bombard. As he pointed out, battles like Sevastopol, where there is time to set-up, again, artillery is dominant.

In WWII artillery probably caused most of the casualties, although tanks and aircraft may have passed artillery as the decisive weapon. Why? Because tanks mobility allowed them to breakthrough to the support areas in the rear where the artillery is vulnerable. The Germans used tanks to break-through and surround. The Russians, however, were masters of artillery, and often tried to pin the Germans to devastate them with the big guns.

So, now (since the end of WWII), to add mobility to artillery, we have self-propelled artillery ....


Breunor
 
Well, I think that a Trebuchet attacking a foot soldier is one of the most unrealist things in the game.
 
Civ is a game, but contrary to many other games, it gives the impression of mirroring the reality. There is no magic, except the wonderful income from missionaries and shrines. This is the reason why I think Breunor is drilling into the core:
Do gamers want “balanced” weaponry, or do we want something close to reality.

Breunor describes the role of early cannons. How to adapt this to CIV is in my opinion a question of definitions. Cannons can direct fire on enemy troops, but are in the midst of the battle and might be captured. The cannon's crews can resist enemy attacks to a certain level. But cannons do not engage the enemy as a sole unit.

I will conclude both artillery and cannons should act like in CIVIII.

For cats/trebs I am puzzled by the destroying of siege towers when I loose a unit. It seems that cats/trebs represent a combined arms attack including a siege tower with troops to exploit breaches in the defences. In this period it means the walls.

Some think the CIVIII-concept of bombarding cannons/artillery was over-powered. I am not sure, according to the world outside CIV: An essential part of WWII casualties were inflicted by artillery – including small grenade throwers allocated with the front line troops. I believe I read 70 percent (correct me those who know).

Breunor writes: "It rarely fired from behind when the owning's side's troops were advancing because its trajectory wan't reliably high enough. The exception was, of course, when the cannon could be placed at elevation. Then, they could 'bombard' enemy troops a la Civ III. Indeed, this was and could be so devastating that it rarely happened since most defending commanders weren't dumb enough to let it happen."

And that is important. It is not the general with the most and the best troops who wins, but he who knows to exploit his advances and to prevent the enemy from using his.
 
Hm and also cavalry to cut out roads around the target, which reminds me I MUST plunder everything in the square before getting at the road, sometimes three turns with my cavalry exposed. As another poster suggested, it's like having to raze the library to get at the barracks.
I would like to see a pillage option. I believe this was available in Civ II or III. I would often prefer to pillage a road while leaving the tile improvement intact, especially cottages.
 
And that is important. It is not the general with the most and the best troops who wins, but he who knows to exploit his advances and to prevent the enemy from using his.

This is an interesting point. Giving artillery and the like more capability will just give the AI more to use improperly.

I've seen the AI move next to a city with a small stack containing one artillery unit and wait four or five turns until it reduces the defense before attacking. Guess it figured I wasn't going to concentrate forces in the meantime to destroy it. Give me the ability to bombard that stack without risk and my job just gets a lot easier.

Also,the AI also doesn't often separate slow and fast moving units, even within it's own territory. When I'm attacking, I will see stacks of AI fast moving units moving at half speed to counter me because it's bringing artillery along and refuses to break the stack. Knowing it does this has caused me to develop a strategy special modern era strategy when I declare war. I jump gunships across the border and pillage all roads and rails and fall back behind that dead zone. The AI stack moves into the dead zone, but not through because artillery is slowing it down. Fast attack units in the stack often don't attack without the artillery, even if they can. That give me one turn to obliterate that AI stack. After a few turns of this, the AI has wasted all it's non-garrison units and I move in. Again, a risk free ability to attack the AI stack would just make it easier for me.

The way the game is designed, artillery included, is there are almost no ways to damage an enemy unit without risk of being damaged back. Eliminate that by giving artillery the ability to attack units without risk of being damaged and the AI will get cut to pieces, worse than it often is.
 
Why do you think a strategic wargame like civ shoudl follow tactical wargame traditions? It makes no sense on the scale of hundreds of kilometers. It is much easier to just remmeber that everyhting in a game on this scale is HIGHLY ABSTRACTED, and that a "catapult" say might represent siege weapons, sappers, crack skirmishing troops etc. etc. etc. And "artillery" could be a whole standard artillery division with 2 standard regiments and one one regiment of artillery. Even real life "artillery" divisions were mostly infantry for much of the 20th century.
 
Why do you think a strategic wargame like civ shoudl follow tactical wargame traditions? It makes no sense on the scale of hundreds of kilometers. It is much easier to just remmeber that everyhting in a game on this scale is HIGHLY ABSTRACTED, and that a "catapult" say might represent siege weapons, sappers, crack skirmishing troops etc. etc. etc. And "artillery" could be a whole standard artillery division with 2 standard regiments and one one regiment of artillery. Even real life "artillery" divisions were mostly infantry for much of the 20th century.

I totally agree, which is why I say the primary issues are the game balance and playability issue. I'm trying to tell people, though, that a CIV III shouldn't be jutified on historical reasons except potentially modern artillery and I agree that looking at ANY of the arms separately (especially for modern warfare) is unrealistic. Most of the strike power of modern 'infantry' IS their artillery.

Carl V, very good summary -- I think you explain my position better than I do!! I agree that if the game is 'better' with CIV III style artillery, even for cannon, I can -CIV-Zen it.

Breunor
 
Carl,

Your examples are true for MODERN artillery. This isn't true for the artillery until recent times. For instance, there aren't many examples of Medieval artillery bombarding troops, they were usually built at the site for attacking fortifications. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but they generally didn't fight at all in battles. Both bombardment and suicide artillery are just historically incorrect for that period and for ancient warfare.


Breunor

Hmm you are absolutely right. I can't think of any historical battle where siege equipment was built in the home city and pushed/pulled by the army all the way to the enemy city. It's all built on site.

What that tells me is that Civ needs an entirely new way to handle ancient to medieval city sieges. There needs to be a "siege" option, similar to the Total War games. You lay siege for a few turns, cutting off the city from outside supplies (even it's own fat cross) and during those turns you can build siege equipment like catapults and trebuchets. But they disappear after the siege, because no army had the means to travel with those huge machines all over the place. It just wasn't done.

Modern artillery should work different. They should be buildable in cities and be mobile. They shouldn't however work by "attacking" with them. I really do prefer Civ III's method. A sizeable army with lots of artillery bombarding the enemy should be a force to be reckoned with! Only thing I would change is that any enemy artillery within range of the bombarding artillery should automatically bombard in retaliation. It's a limitation of the game engine that artillery can bombard an enemy square containing the exact same kind of artillery unit and not be fired on in retaliation, since in reality the battle/bombarding is happening simultaneously.

Example: You want to bombard an enemy city with artillery units in your stack. The enemy city has either the same or more advanced artillery in it's stack. When you bombard with your artillery, his artillery bombards back. This doesn't happen if his artillery isn't as advanced as yours (meaning if you bombard with modern artillery, his 19th century cannon cannot bombard back. It's a matter of ranges)

Example: If you're still in the medieval era, instead of simply attacking the enemy city you can "lay siege". This cuts off the city from the rest of the world, including every adjacent workable tile. It can quickly lead to starvation. During this time you can build temporary catapults, trebuchets, rams etc. to bombard the city walls or defenses. You don't have to, but taking the time to do this (which will only be a turn or three) will make the final battle much easier for your troops, as a medieval army assaulting a well-fortified city without any siege equipment is doomed to failure. Once you reach the industrial age you can no longer lay siege.

This is just off the top of my head. It's not a detailed system or anything. Just quickly thought-about examples.

EDIT: Perhaps to counter the resulting "stacks of doom", there could be a special commando-type unit used for disabling/destroying artillery. It excels in attacking enemy stacks and getting the enemy artillery to be the defending unit instead of other more capable units. I would say it should be available starting some time in the industrial era as an eary guerilla-warfare unit (the way some Confederate officers commanded their troops in guerilla-type raids)
 
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