Ashen Veil balance issues

Being AV means water mana is mandatory for expansion even if you haven't got any deserts in your lands. Without expansion, you can still be royally screwed if your opponent does something crazy like scorches important resources.

Being AV also means reagents are a win or die resource on the magic front, whereas other sides have two possible paths, one through reagents, and one through incense or gems. All or nothing, particularly as the sheaim.

Further compounding the issue is your melee unit causing disease. While yes, it's a good unit, it also means you can't use anything else without getting them diseased. Like it or not, trying to kill people with just undead and summoned units have some serious countermeasures. One of those countermeasures comes in the form of another undead unit, OO will rape you without reagents, bad. It's not a maybe that depends on what else you can go after. No reagents, no win, the drown hit cannibalize and turn into stygian guard, bone you in the ass, and eventually a few of them, maybe mutated for extra strength earlier, turn into eidolons. Your poor corpses are at a whopping -30% strength the whole time 30% down from 5 is a lot lower than 4.

You're down one mana type that you otherwise might not need, you gain strength bonuses from hell resources, everyone else hates you, your economy sucks, you have super powered religious units that require an often hard to find resource or nerf your usage of other units and have substantial drawbacks. Your heroes are great, but not really that great. So you've got runes beat, but mardero up against yvain or hemah? right...

AV is great for nuking the world, but it's not some super cheesy path. Super cheesy if you're trying to play leaves with dwarves and kill the sheaim using AV sure, but against another combination that goes well? You're knocking the others, but spiritual hammer paramanders are going to rip your diseased corpses a new . .. .. .. .. .. .. ., with or without any other help from purely dwarven units. You're going to need reagents just to stay alive with khazad running runes. When that production powerhouse running 100% research starts a war with you, it will be with enough units to take your summons on the chin and still bury your ass under more than you can support.

That's the weak religion in the list, order is keyed for boning AV, ljosalfar with leaves is invincible on defense regardless of what you're running and can and will eventually win just fine by sitting on their ass and using that far superior specialist production to whip you like a dog in ever way while they get an altar. Like it or not, the drown own diseased corpses too, you're boned bad without reagents there.

One final point since you're bashing it, slavery does not suck. Slavery is an awesome civic. As balseraphs with a freakshow, slavery is a godly civic, but it's an awesome civic for any side. Slaves are free production, lunatics on the fly, happiness and culture boosts for balseraphs. Did I mention free production? And what's not to like about capturing your entire workforce for free and never needing to build another worker after you get it regardless of what happens to yours? Workers are expensive, never knock free workers that can be sacrificed for production or turned into an army on the fly, even slow workers.
 
imho you're not giving mardero enough credit there. Solo, he may not be able to stand up to a full boosted Yvian (or hemah ofcourse), but remember: he's a summoner aswell. When i'm AV, my mardero has 2-3 balors running alongside him for over 90% of the time, which combined can take Yvian on (even with treeant). Bringing hemah up is practically an unfair competition, everyone knows he's basically the best hero in the game, save the AC70 ones.
Thanks to the required techs for the woodelf, you're usually able to get to mardero as soon as Yvian aswell (no need for the entire recon line).
Yes, you may need reagents, but imho the elves need incense just as bad.
oh, and about drowns upgrading to stygian and eidolon, as far as i know AV has got eidolons of it's own aswell.

i'm not saying AV is an overpowered superreligion, but it's not in such a bad state as you've put it.
 
I'm still going to stick with multiplayer here, as the originator of this thread intended. If Kael is concerned with OOS issues in multiplayer, he obviously has a mind for that too.

AV's true strength is still the STW civic. Not for sacrificing, as unhapiness becomes a serious burden soon, but simply for having more towns and specialists, and never having to worry about health again (-10 health from population? So? I have more than 10 "extra" food compared to your capital anyway). It also enjoys the ritualists, which are immediately useful for having direct combat spells and summons (Keelyn especially, that and the creative trait). Forget waiting for adapts or "economic advantages", which takes time, and time you don't have.

Weakness? It comes late, something serious in a multiplayer game. It's not as bad as single player, because it's at quick speed, but still, Severous or RoK warriors with bronze weapons (they WILL have mining, you probably don't) knocking at your door or pillaging your resources really, really Sucks. It's for that reason that I feel AV's only good for pawning AI.
 
Did I mention free production? And what's not to like about capturing your entire workforce for free and never needing to build another worker after you get it regardless of what happens to yours? Workers are expensive, never knock free workers that can be sacrificed for production or turned into an army on the fly, even slow workers.

And where, pray tell, will you be "capturing your entire workforce for free" from? The neigbouring player who has spent all his time building warriors instead of teching, like you?

MP FFH differs vastly from SP, and we were talking about MP here. People hold grudges, people are paranoid and you can't just get away with anything in a proper MP game.


Edit: And someone talked about SoK being useful? Pff. You really need to be completely isolated from everyone in the world to spend time building 90 hammer troops just so you can sac them rushing for about, what, 15? hammers they seem to give when rushing improvements? Totally useless. Rather use the money you get from being Runic.
 
All those warriors will be pretty good slaves, what's wrong with them? If you're going for ritualists, you're not exactly warrior spamming yourself either. You get attacked, or attack yourself, 25% of your kills turn into slaves, where's the logical failure here? Even if they capture most of your workers on the initial strike, you'll still be able to rapidly replace them through the ensuing war. Since it's mp and not sp, who's going to trade reagents to the AV player?
 
If your losing, adopting and spreading Ashen Veil can cause Armageddon which can give you a fighting chance to win.

I dont play mulitplayer, but it would seem that if your skilled you wouldnt want the randomness of the super-barbarian spawns wiping out your lead.

I would think that the leading player would have an eye on the Armageddon counter and would be doing everything in his power to stop it from rising. Wrath is one mean dude.
 
Not really...
The spread of hell terrain gives bonuses to deamons (av player units) and demons and summons happen to be the best possible unit against armageddon heroes...
This in addition to the blight wiping out your enemies ability to build anything until they rebuild their farms and get their resources back in use is a defacto difference between wiping the map or not doing so...

And if you happen to have barbarian trait and be the AV player... Very Nice!
 
And seriously. Who develops AV when you dont have reagents?

Its the same argument that if ships were overpowered, and I'd argue that "so if all you have is landlocked cities, ships are useless."

Oh really?

In MP nobody wants redundant tech, or more like, the guys who want something are going to race for it, thus also probably will get it. So the player who has reagents (or players) will race for AV, and unless people form a coalition to take them down and not let them develop they soon become unstoppable, which is not the case with any other religion. AV is just too strong.
 
Bringing hemah up is practically an unfair competition, everyone knows he's basically the best hero in the game, save the AC70 ones.

Isn't comparing the different heroes kind of the point here? OP is saying AV gets it better at all bases, but clearly if hemah is superior this isn't quite true.

Weakness? It comes late, something serious in a multiplayer game. It's not as bad as single player, because it's at quick speed, but still, Severous or RoK warriors with bronze weapons (they WILL have mining, you probably don't) knocking at your door or pillaging your resources really, really Sucks. It's for that reason that I feel AV's only good for pawning AI.

This I totally agree with. The AV religion path is combat poor until you hit the priests, making you very susceptable to earlygame rush. OP, if you're getting beaten down by AV wielding calabim/sheaim all the time it's probably time you adopted a counter strat. The combination of AV and those civs especially allows for killer lategame, but very sub-par early game. Try a rush tactic such as Ljosalfar Gilden Siveric/Archer rush, or Kuriotates centaur rush to seriously hamper their productivity during early-game stages.

Also OP, what kind of maps are you playing these games on? Different maps give different advantages to different civs- if you are playing a team continents map, or a large map with few players, lategame civs will have an advantage simply due to the distance between them and their enemies. Similarly, if you play very small maps, rush civs will have the advantage. It's part of the reason FFH pvp will never be totally balanced.
 
So far in the MP games that I've played, everyone tries to develop a large standing army from the beginning, only to avoid having your neighbour flatten you with theres. So usually theres a balance of power, an uneasy peace. Everyone knows everyone has troops, and so the game plods on without any major events in the early game, because wars tend to be kind of final. If someone starts attacking me just to hamper my productivity, I would seriously consider gearing up for war so as to completely annihilate the other player. No easy hampering or raiding others, because you can't just make peace like you did with the comp.

At least in my experience.

All those warriors will be pretty good slaves, what's wrong with them? If you're going for ritualists, you're not exactly warrior spamming yourself either. You get attacked, or attack yourself, 25% of your kills turn into slaves, where's the logical failure here? Even if they capture most of your workers on the initial strike, you'll still be able to rapidly replace them through the ensuing war. Since it's mp and not sp, who's going to trade reagents to the AV player?

And as for the comment on the warriors being good slaves. If you are going for ritualists, exactly, you arent warrior spamming. Which your neighbour most likely is. Therefore the logical failiure is in that you get flattened, not much you can do with captured slaves then...

So far in my MP experience, when someone declares war, they have been preparing for the last 100 turns, and they attack with usually at least a three to one ratio of troops to the strength they estimated you to have (or spied to have).
 
So far in the MP games that I've played, everyone tries to develop a large standing army from the beginning, only to avoid having your neighbour flatten you with theres. So usually theres a balance of power, an uneasy peace. Everyone knows everyone has troops, and so the game plods on without any major events in the early game, because wars tend to be kind of final. If someone starts attacking me just to hamper my productivity, I would seriously consider gearing up for war so as to completely annihilate the other player. No easy hampering or raiding others, because you can't just make peace like you did with the comp.

At least in my experience.

That's how it started in the MP games I play, and it's all about having the wrong mindset more than anything else. In a competative MP game the aim IS to annihilate your opponent. If you're letting your AV/Sheaim friend tech to summoners then it's entirely your fault- plan to remove him from the game at an early stage. One of my friends always goes AV amurites when he plays, and originally he always used to smash me down with his uber mage/priest spam. Now however, when i'm in games with him i'll go elves/hippus and gilden siveric rush him at the very start. The destruction of his cottage based economy is enough to force him along earlygame routes/religions and give me a distinct advantage.

It's no wonder AV seems unbalanced in MP then, if you're always letting your opponents reach that level of tech without any pressure keeping them down. Change the way you play and I think you'll find other tactics start seeming more 'imba' (such as the gilden rush i've talked about a few times. If your opponent isn't prepared you can often wipe them out 30 mins into your game).
 
If you area playing with more then two players, you will always run into the same dilemma...

If you start attacking someone, you leave your territories largely undefended or would I rather say only marginally defended... When you move in and squash someone, as soon as the other players start recieving "[cityname] has fallen to [civname]" they will start moving on your weak flank. Basically you only migrate, but to lands where you have hostile culture and no buildings...
It's not quite as easy as you might think it is... Hence you practically need to have 3x the troops of two of your neighbours, and thats a bit of a challenge...
 
Captured slaves are for the OO player, why are you contradicting yourself? Either AV is overpowered, or they die to a warrior rush before they ever hit ritualists, it can't be both.

Being late is part of the equation, and AV is late.

Gritty, the AV rusher is already lightly defended without attacking someone. You wont need your full strength to take them down. Either that or they are going to be getting ritualists after a runes player has enchanted blade iron weapon axemen and bambur knocking on their capital.

Free for alls can be a . .. .. .. .. . in civ though.
 
Psychoak: Sorry, was tired when typing, somehow read that you would go Bal/slavery AND AV ritualists :p

But yes, the AV player should be done in before he can tech all he needs, but like Gritty Git said, it's harder than you'd think in a MP game. We play on average with 6-10 players, and diplomacy is rife, usually when someone starts just crashing into his neighbors everyone else teams up. So while you have to build a respectable military, you cannot appear too strong, and often through this delicate balance springs the player who has been going priesthood/AV in all silence. Suddenly you just see that AV was founded somewhere. The way the game goes now, you either team up with everyone to wipe that player out or hes too strong for you already. And then the ritualists start popping up. Aaand then you are pretty much knackered.

I must admit that this is more of a large map problem, and in our current game we for some folly took a huge map. It feels like it will never end XD
 
And someone talked about SoK being useful? Pff. You really need to be completely isolated from everyone in the world to spend time building 90 hammer troops just so you can sac them rushing for about, what, 15? hammers they seem to give when rushing improvements? Totally useless. Rather use the money you get from being Runic.
You can make up numbers all you want. Soldiers of Kilmorph provide 50% of their hammer cost to production when consumed. Transferring half the production from one city to another may not seem like much of an advantage, but it really can be, especially if you can give your soldiers Mobility when you build them to get them where they're going that much faster.
 
I still think it would be better if their effectiveness were based on level rather than just a flat 45 hammers no matter how experienced that Sok was. I always feel like I'm being wasteful if I sacrifice SoK built in the city with the Altar because There experience is wasted, but that is usually the city tat can build them the fastest. I'd like it if they provided ~10 or 15 hammers per level. It would make the decision of who to sacrifice much harder.
 
I'm not saying the player with reagents going for AV will or should be flattened before they get there. The "more than two player" and "you send your troops in first" problem of a coalition remains. What I'm saying is that AV is balanced because you will have a smaller empire than others if you choose to pursue this "arcane might" path, so it's quality versus quantity at that point. Diseased corpses and ritualists are no joke.

About the 90 hammer troops comment: that wasn't even what I was trying to get at. What I did mean is that to reach RoK, mining is in the way, and with a bronze mine, my strength 4 *warriors" will beat your strength 3 ones. I'm talking MP-caliber rush here.
 
My opinion is that the main problem with Ashen Veil is that Sacrifice the Weak is a bit strong. I think that the easiest solution is to increase the amount of food consumed per population - perhaps to 1 1/2 (instead of 1).
 
No, the best solution is to push the civic back until Infernal Pact. All the other religions' civic require their unique tech, why doesn't StW? This would also encourage Hyborem's spawning.
 
anyone mind if i shed some light onto this topic?

I am not even going to go into what most people would call conventional tactics for the moment....

1 - leaves. NOTHING can stop the FoL inside their borders. just build yourself your 3 invisible beastmasters with move 4 and forest combat 2 and you will understand. and i am not brining up druids. teching to this is also VERY strong and impossible to counter.

2 - kilmorph. NOTHING can out produce you. you can build whatever your highest tech unit is every turn. you are the god of gold and hammers. someone brought up sacrificing your guys for 50% of their hammers.... did you build the soulforge? how many of you that talk about RoK being weak have ever run Khazad on the econ tree and used shadow/assasins coupled with seige instead of using foot?

3 - overlords , your totally amphibious. your units mean you never need to build boats. you have hemah , and the ability to make flesh golems. coupled with slavery and all the culture and research gained .... its an extremely solid religion.

4 - order , so far no one here has mentioned the use of demon/undead slaying and i have wondered why. the order is the one most likely to build an empire and be able to sustain it. sphener and the paladinns are a force of nature in and of themselves. the order though is one of the more subtle religions.

5 - the AV. again when fighting the AV use units with demon slaying. use fast moving units. or use units that can be rendered invisible.

each and every religion is strong in the hands of those with the right mindset and knowledge. get to know what each religion tries to do , try and get into its head. keal and co have done a wonderful job of giving the civs and religions personalities. try and get your playstyle to fit these and you will find it gets easier.
 
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