Atarashika Doctrine - War with Russa Poll

[Provolution]

Atarashika Doctrine - War with Russa Poll

This is a multiple choice public poll, so you are welcome to vote the options you find acceptable. It is advantageous to limit the votes to the options you prioritize, due to the plurality and spectrum rules in this poll.

After due consideration, and no polls from CIA (Domestic Ministry) or FAmilia (Foreign Affairs), MSAV (Military) is now forced to present a comprehensive poll, integrating the settler (domestic), the various treaties around (FA and trade) as well as science (our next technologies will impact our warfaring capabilities and realistic unit builds). This also means I will call upon the Judiciary to oversee that this document will be binding for the duration of the conflict. I feel pressed to do everyones elses job here, and I see that all blame is put on me for some curious reason (political of course).

I will list these neutrally with the least agressive options first and the most aggressive options last, even though I could have ranked these after economic cost, after our interest in a diplomatic victory and in line with how many treaties I need, but I do this instead.

I expect this war to last to the end of Term V, given that we only have 3 turnchats left. However, I will give a projection on how long the different wars will go. Frankly, I was joking in the threads, I am not going to waste christmas wasting my time planning a detailed war, but to make it short.

For the purposes of this term, I will consider this a 20 turn war (1495-1600).
This may be extended to 30 turns, given the nature of the conflict.

I have nothing less than thirteen options for this war, decided in the following sequence.

1. Simple Majority (More than 50 %)
2. Plurality (Highest number of votes)
3. Spectrum Vote (Median of two plural vote contestants)
4. Spectrum Vote 2 (Triple plurality or quadruple plurality will lead to either 1.
the middle of the triple tied pluralities, or the median of the two center tied pluralities)
5. Split median, MSAV minister will tip the balance to one of the two conceivable median options.

Starting from the most peaceful solution (for a war)

Scenario 1. "Sitzkrieg" Unilateral

Japanaticas citizens are fearful of war, and has decided to bunker up in Japanatica for a long cozy family get together, surviving the winter.
No mutual protection acts will be signed. Research will target the following periods following Science Policy: Steel-Combustion (1495-1535). (Airpower -Mass Production), airpower first, since we only need to air-bombard invaders.

Defense will be conducted in Japanatica only, we will observe the enemy pass between our ironclads, and fight the enemy on our own shores.

This war will not see any development for 20 turns, just home defense.

Scenario 2. "The Shorai Line" Aztecs and Americans treaty

Japanaticas citizens puts its faith into the navy, holding invading ships 2 turns away from our shore. We have some 10 ironclads to handle the job, and these are ordered to sink enemies on sight and hold the line.Research will target the following periods following Science Policy: Steel-Combustion (1495-1535). (Mass Production-Airpower), Mass production first, since we need to fill in eventual losses in our fleet with modern upgrades.

Defense will be conducted primarily at sea, secondarily with simple home-defense as option two.

Scenario 3. "Operation Classical Furiey ZERO" Unilateral (Tough War)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=107116

Japanatica will use a sizable section of highly trained and specialized troops to land in the mountains outside Sverdlovsk and Punjab with Infantry and Artillery, as well as 3 Elite Imperial Commando and 5 Elite Cavalry that has to be used for the Great Leader gambit (using the benefits of Heroic Epic) in order to support future wonder builds


Scenario 4. "Operation Classical Furiey Alpha" Aztecs and Americans (Short War)

This enables us to easily assert mountain siege points at Sverdlovsk and Punjab, and forcing Russia to fight a two front war, leaving Russia India to us.

Scenario 5. "Operation Classical Furiey Bravo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel Alliance (Relatively secure War)

This enables us to easily assert mountain siege points at Sverdlovsk and Punjab, and forcing Russia to fight a two front war, leaving Russia India to us.
This also preempts a future continental war, in case Russia recruits France and Babylon to fall us in the back.

Scenario 6. "Operation Classical Furiey Charlie" Aztecs, Americans, French, Babel and China MPP Alliance (China may rise to new power status)



Scenario 7. "Operation Classical Furiey Delta" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

This variation of the main operation with landings in Sverdlovsk, Punjab and Lahore, will have a follow up with an additional landing in turnchat 2 (1550-1600) at Bombay and Delhi. Hence, reference Delta, beyond being phonetic, Bombay and Delhi is located in a Delta region around a river.


Scenario 8."Operation Classical Furiey Echo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

The variation of this plan, is to head straight for airpower in the science queue, before mass production, and rush airplanes that can be used in the conquered cities on the coast (breaking the sonic wall, hence Echo).

Will involve cashrushes too, in order to be used in TC 2 and 3

Scenario 9."Operation Classical Furiey Echo Echo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

The variation of this plan, is to head straight for airpower in the science queue, before mass production, and rush airplanes that can be used in the conquered cities on the coast as well as projecting paratroopers into the West of Russian India (breaking the sonic wall and landing buzzed paratroopers in order to seize key locations, hence Echo Echo).

Will involve cashrushes too, in order to be used in TC 2 and 3

Scenario 10. "Operation Free the Soviet of India" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel MPP Alliance.

This is a variation of the "Operation Classical Furiey", where we factor in a stage 2 if Russia does not surrender, conquering the following Russian Cities

Conditional: Peace Treaty to be negotiated first after "Operation Classical Furiey", then this peace treaty should be polled against "Operation Free Soviet of India". This is the needed democratic option for a more extended war. This plan also entails focus on Amphibious War before Aviation and Airforce, due to several naval landings. We will also gear military production to face demands here.



Scenario 11. "Machiavellian Plan"

We establish MPPs across the Atarashikan continent and found the tundra bait city to trigger all those, if you vote for this, please specify which warplan you intend to follow from 1-10.

Scenario 12. "Other proposal"

Originator of proposal is aware that all votes must be written into the thread, and that the option will be placed in the end by MSAV in the spectrum of alternatives.


Scenario 13

Unfortunate number, but here we go

Abstain (See Point 1-12)



Special 12. "Unilateral Russocide"

Total War to Russia. Japanatica will mobilize everything in its power, regime change, drafting, war mobilization and other means to destroy Russia at all costs. We are not ending this before the last Russian city is gone.

Due to the non-binding nature of this poll, that it can only last one turnchat,
I suggest anyone that wants to take out Russia completely vote for one of the other options, then we have a poll on "Unilateral Russocide" for next turnchat. It is too early to decide the fate of a nation, and this requires more discussion and analysis.

 

[Nobody]

damn, what a big poll. well i got polls now two of them, so you should just ummm.....

 

[Crimso]

Thank you for representing my group. We are not blood thirsty. We don't demand reparations for lost gold, because it's just gold. We have not lost any lives, any cities, any wonders, or any land that was 'ours' to begin with. We want reason, not rage.

Invading Russia will take a lot of effort. What will we do with the cities? Keep them, and they'll just suck our gold away. Raze them, and our reputation with other nations will take another football to the groin. Gift them, and we either make another civ stronger or give them the problems mentioned. If we return them to Russia, the war is a waste.

How will our citizens react? We are no longer ruled by Monarchy; war is the single most hated thing by the masses. We haven't built a single police station, and we cannot garuntee building the Universal Suffrage before another nation. Beyond Aztecian spices, we have no other way to combat the protest other than raising the luxury bar; this puts our technological dominace at risk. Some have called for a revolution to pre-empt the war weariness, and this should strike you as wrong, citizens. Democracy is an end. We achieved it, and there should be no turning back to a dictatorship because it is a step down.

We've beat up three nations so far, and as beautiful as Japanatica is, does it not seem a bit bloated to you? We've used wars declared on us as an excuse to invade countries. Rome's limbs and torso were cut from it when we were infants; the Iroquois were hamstringed, and are still living in the age of knights and catapults. The Zulu campaign was an admirable sign of restraint, maybe, but we still took what we didn't need.

You want to stick it to the Russians? Why? We're unbeatable on our continent, there is no point in proving that we're just as so on Atarashika. Yes, they ripped us off, but that is because we were sucking them dry. We took advantage of them, and they didn't have much of a choice. We don't need to prove who has the bigger penis. What 'honourable' reasons do we have to invade them? They are not a threat to our nation. Us, invading them, is a threat to our nation. We don't need to do this because of lost gold because we got more than we deserved already.

Let's be mature for once. Let's build up some ships, and put them out in the ocean. If we see a Russian ship, blow it to hell. Keep this military versus military. We will loose no one in this war if we don't send them there. Ride it out until the Russians cool off.

More than anything, I encourage citizens to take their time on any vote regarding this war. Please, DO NOT VOTE until we've discussed it at some length.

...and I voted for the wrong one. Could a mod please (if possible) change my vote from scenario 1 to scenario 2? Thank you.

 

[Provolution]

If you are in doubt, but may not have the time, at least vote for what you believe in.
You can vote for several acceptable options.

 

[DaveShack]

This also means I will call upon the Judiciary to oversee that this document will be binding for the duration of the conflict. I feel pressed to do everyones elses job here, and I see that all blame is put on me for some curious reason (political of course).

No, this is an unacceptable position.
The WOTP is not static, and the people may
always change their minds on any topic. A decision is never "binding for the duration of the conflict" -- it can only live until the next time someone makes a credible request to change it, at which time it must be rediscussed and repolled. This is demogame 101, and I'm shocked nobody else is screaming about it already!

This poll is much too large, covers too many subjects, and oversteps the bounds of the other offices. MSAV may not make decisions for the other ministries. The other leaders may interpret the results of this poll as the will of the people for their respective areas but are not bound to its results, and they must always be free to conduct their own business in their own manner.

I shall consider the options presented and post an analysis separately, of course.

 

[Nobody]

This is demogame 101, and I'm shocked nobody else is screaming about it already!

DAMN! THAT PROVOLUTION GRRR!!! SPITING ON THE CONSTITUTION AND SUCH GRRR !!!!!

 

[Ashburnham]

Amen, Brother Dave. I strongly urge the MSAV to reconsider this poll. Of course, if us "isolationists" are simple being "counterproductive" again, I can assure you Culture would love to come up with a battle plan.

 

[Provolution]

It is binding to the next turnchat at least. WE will see how the war goes.

 

[Provolution]

Dave, I can see your clear bias as you made no parallel requests on the handling of this to science, FA, Domestic and culture. You need to show some wisdome in your accusations here, you are now hitting at the end product in the value chain.

 

[Provolution]

I would also like to mention that the use of settler as bait is advisory, science queues are advisory and treaties are advisory. However, showing preferences here would demonstrate to the other ministries what war the people want. I also find it curious that Daveshack pops out of the woodworks only to conduct political attacks at me, and not produce any productice input in helping out in the planning and handling of issues.
Last time I saw a Daveshack post was in the election thread, where he asked the President to remove me and pick another candidate.

 

[MOTH]

Sorry Provolution,
This poll is flawed. At least its the most extreme option that is missing. In your description of the options you have 2 option #3's. In the poll section you left off "Russian Genocide".

I would like to request that at the minimum you edit post#1 to reflect the true option numbers. Of course with all the politics and threats, it might be advisable to open a new poll instead. Of course that will probably lead someone to charge that you didn't have the poll open long enough. I don't think you can win, it seems someone will attack you either way.

Personal Opinion for everyone else reading this post,
Provolution and I have had our disagreements. The first was nearly an outright flame war. I think there are 2 things about Provolution's persona that are skewing peoples thoughts about this game. 1. He is very opinionated. 2. He is sometimes quick to attack using assumptions about others. My personal opinion is that at least part of this is because he is roleplaying a persona for the sake of interest in the DemoGame. Does he truely hold the opinions he puts forth here? Probably not, but that doesn't matter. If ou want to attack someone's true positions with logic and debate then go to the Off Topic thread. The important thing for you (and this means everyone, Provo and me included) to remember is that this is a game.

 

[Provolution]

The posts are edited, thank you for being constructive. This poll was more complex due to the impact MPPs and the tundra settler, as well as new miltiary sciences will have on this war. The options are still the same. I also left out the extreme option Russian Genocide, since that requires more discussion and polling possibly after the first experience of war.

But I thank you MOTH for being constructive here. I am certain to get some attacks for political reasons, but there is not much politics to gain, the game is soon over, and we are merely wrapping up these days. Better to end this neatly and tidily as possible.

 

[DaveShack]

Dave, I can see your clear bias as you made no parallel requests on the handling of this to science, FA, Domestic and culture. You need to show some wisdome in your accusations here, you are now hitting at the end product in the value chain.

Whoa, no accusation was made, just a statement that this is not the right way to handle it. Responding to someone else's poorly handled poll would require a poll to respond to..

 

[Provolution]

Well, respond to the absence of their polls then.

Science got their things together, so does culture, except for the Niagara Flip, Trade does very well on trades, but could coordinate with FA better. Domestic handled upgrades and rushes, doing financially very well, but has forgotten the three units Domestic has authority over. MSAV has tried to create pre-plans, but has been rejected several times. Now I have polled every presented option in this poll, and made
references to advisory roles of various departments on how to run the war.

But you could question why the tundra city never was polled, even though some really disliked the idea.

 

[DaveShack]

Here is the promised analysis, for the military part of the poll only.

Scenario 1. "Sitzkrieg" Unilateral
I don't like the idea of doing nothing to blunt the enemy thrust. At a minimum the navy should strike any invasion force while well out at sea, so I recommend not voting for this one.

Scenario 2. "The Shorai Line" Aztecs and Americans treaty

This looks like a reasonable option from the military point of view for those who would prefer non-aggression combined with a strong defense.

I do not approve of combining policy for more than one department, but my usual approach on science is to make airpower the last required tech that I research.

Scenario 3. "Operation Classical Furiey ZERO" Unilateral (Tough War)

Fishing for leaders is a good idea. If we do this, keep a well-protected troop carrier handy to carry the leader home.

Scenario 4. "Operation Classical Furiey Alpha" Aztecs and Americans (Short War)

This has no details other than to imply we would first get MPP with Aztecs and Americans. It is someone else's job to decide that, and it does not help with the ability to attack inside Russian territory until Russia attacks in our territory first. So scenarios 3 and 4 as standalone entities are equal, unless Russia succeeds in reaching our territory to attack.

Scenario 5. "Operation Classical Furiey Bravo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel Alliance (Relatively secure War)

Are these alliances, or MPP's? There is a difference, and MPPs get us nothing until attacked in our own territory, see comment to scenario 4.

Scenario 6. "Operation Classical Furiey Charlie" Aztecs, Americans, French, Babel and China MPP Alliance (China may rise to new power status)

Hmm, China will dogpile anyway if given a chance. Ideally we want China on Russia's side. Sounds crazy but we don't need to win land over there, just get everyone at war with someone other than us.

Scenario 7. "Operation Classical Furiey Delta" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

No, using MPP we have no freedom to attack until we are attacked ourselves. If FA uses MA instead, then we are stuck in war until the others make peace.

If everyone else is already at war with Russia, then we can consider taking cities and holding them in order to keep them away from the others, especially China. I have not looked at the map, but the cities to take are the ones closest to China.

Scenario 8."Operation Classical Furiey Echo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

Again, setting policy for science under the guise of saying what kind of units we need for this strategy.

As before, we need to use MA instead of MPP, or wait until Russia attacks in our territory.

Scenario 9."Operation Classical Furiey Echo Echo" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel, alliance

The description seems to be saying we would also do Advanced Flight first, right? The lack of details make it hard to tell exactly what we're voting for because what is different between 8 and 9?

Scenario 10. "Operation Free the Soviet of India" Aztecs, Americans, French and Babel MPP Alliance.

Let's take it one turnchat at a time please.

Scenario 11. "Machiavellian Plan"

Oh, so that's how you plan to trigger the MPPs... Kinda need Internal Affairs to sign off on this. Defend it well enough and maybe people don't have to die needlessly.

Scenario 12. "Other proposal"

My proposal in another post.

 

[DaveShack]

Other proposal:

Before we rush into Russia

Can we keep the others from forming an alliance with Russia, against us, using trade?

 

[Provolution]

Well, you see how fast they want to get out of deals for a war. We need to link security policy and Reputation hits. But again, most of this is FA material.

LOL@Daveshack, you are hilarious, first you scold me for mentioning other policy arenas in my plan, and then your other proposal is how to counter the problem via trade HOHOHOHO very entertaining.

Hypocrite. Double Morale is Double as Good as Morale.

Merry Xmas

 

[Nobody]

i consider this poll only as advisory, the offical ones have FA at the start, but my job is to Do treatys and stuff by using the will of the people, extra polls so i can see more of the peoples will are always good.

 

[Sir Donald III]

As a critique, perhaps a better poll, from "Violence's" jurisdiction only, would be:

Multi-Choice, Public:

Which Russian cities do you want to Take Over?
[List of Indian cities, each has its own option]
Cities in the Russian Mainland (please Specify) (single option)
Invade only if we have MPPs
Abstain

After all, we're already at war.

The "Invade only if" option allows people to say whether or not to go unilateral.

 

[Provolution]

Instructions posted.

Only naval actions to be undertaken, Shorai Line and some coastal pillaging around Core Russia with Ironclad bombardment and a tiny bit of Slavic-cry, err, Slavery.
Homedefense is also prepared for. The people got its will, a peaceful x-mas

sorry for having to be MR Scrooge here in this Xmas setting, but the apathy was so bad I had to play the mad dictator to get some interaction going. It seems that the only thing that mobilizes someone here is manhunting, crititicism and harangues(I do that to sometimes, but not 24/7 like some here ) and the opportunity to oppose something and win as a group against a scary big brother. Plain and simple mass-suggestion and group psychology. Well, that is applicable all over

Enjoy your X-MAS-(V) then

Mr Scrooge, General