here is a little osmthing I mad eof rthe last thread on Atlantis- it present many of the point that convince me, but I'm still investigateing further sources on the matter- some of them have actually dried up, which si why the promised second part to this little beaut never materlaized.
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well, thiers a lot of Psuedo Science in the thread, many false landmasses described, a few maps thrown about, even a mention of Lemuria!
While all this sort of stuff can be both fun, and interesting, and belive me, I know, my own mother can bo considered very "new age", with her crystal Chakras, feng-Shui, and Lemurias included, and whiel I myself arnt new age (though I am open minded about the matter, generally) I have had the benifit of being readilyl able to access a host of information about the subjec tof atlantis, an dmore over, know the right names ot look for, and the right peg holes that need to be filled. Compund this with my natural afinity for history, particurlaey the bronze age, and very early civlizations, and dare I say, a nice little curiosty on my part, and I have vested quite a bit of time, all sumed up, on this very topic.
Now, I wont bore you with the huge bulk of the information; I will give you the resource that you will find most readilly availible for you yourselves to establish the credibility of, and that would be sources on the internet, and provide links where i have found said information availible on the internet, and where prudent to give a link to.
Now then, first things first; what first brought my attention to Tartessos as being Atlantis (before, i had often dismissed it as a red herring, before even looking at the supporting facts, in favor of Minoa, the nation that holds the most popula consensus in its favor; I have dismissed most of the new age "facts", becaus emuch of it relies on an apperentlly false ancint egyptian scripture "the book of thoth", and good old 19th century psudo-science, and full out fiction on the subject of the Atlantis) was this article, touting the discovery of Atlantis itself; as I read the article, and afterwards looked to research it further, I have to agree with the title! It also worthy to note said article was brought to my attention in a thread on this very website
though, under a different website as a newssource
Lost City of Atlantis Found in Spain?
to augument this, I will simpley quote the most tellign section of that article, though to get a true understanding of the discovery;
Described as "interesting" by Tony Wilkinson, an expert in applications of remote sensing in archaeology at the University of Edinburgh, U.K., the structures are clearly visible in the satellite pictures.
One feature, 230 meters (755 feet) long and 140 meters (460 feet) wide, could be a "silver" temple dedicated to the sea god Poseidon; the other, somewhat "quadratic" structure, measuring 280 meters (920 feet) by 240 meters (790 feet), could be a "golden" temple devoted to Cleito and Poseidon.
"These rectangular structures are surrounded by concentric circles. This agrees with Plato's description that the temples were surrounded by concentric circles of water and earth. Even the sizes are correct. According to Plato, the diameter of the largest circle was 27 stades, i.e. 5 kilometers. In the satellite photos, the diameter of the largest circle is between five and six kilometers," Kühne told Discovery News.
Now, the entire article present a very powerful argument, and indeed, I feel that if I had nothign else, I could very well rest my argument with it; but thier
is more evidence to consider in this matter, and I plan to present it
Now, we have a base argument estbalished for the Tartessian-Atlantean connection; it is important now, that you know exactley where Tartessos is located; its long been known that Tartessos was in the region, and likelly directlly on the Guadalquivir river, though, it had been suspected to be on the outlaying hills; not directlly in the river delta (which, presumabley, was not quite a swamp-delta in that time, and lent itself better for Human settlement) But with the recent discovery, it is finally possibel to pinpoint, exactley, where the city was located; the delta of the Guadalquivir River, a site that matches Homers description quite nicelly, when we interperet the Greek in a different fashion
now then; as can plainlly be seen, if for nothing else, the facts that;
A)the city of Tartessos itself is an island, more over, surrounded by not just one ring of wat, or a river, but an entire delta, with various islands, lends a bit of creedence
B)the site self is outside the pillers of Hercules, just like it should be
C)the area, andalusia, is itself a very rich area, with just about all the mineral wealth, and agricultural bounties one coudl expect in ANY era, and was hoem to one fo the large cities of the Roman empire- large enough to be on its top 10 list, a list who greatest conteders, Rome and Alexandria, both had over a million citizens living in them- the slave numbers on top, I do not know if they have been facotred in at all
The Truth is in the detials
now, lets build the support a bit more, shall we? first off is the Greek wording Plato himself uses has several different meanings; the pharase he uses is "hyper ten heraklei nyssai", which is generally refferred to as "beyond" when dealing with Atlantis, but it has other such meanings as; "on the other side of", "above", "behind"; at first, this dostn seem to mean much; it all, at first glance, points past the Pillers; but think about it; translated, "Beyond" very clearlly implies a land in the Atlantic ocean, and Indeed, the res tof the Plato diologus support such an observation; but if Plato had heard the account second second hand, as he himself stated, this could be a trace of the exact statement; if Atlantis was situated "above", or "behind" th epillers, those two translations seem to imply it still being connected to the general landmass (and this is ingnoring the fact that Spain was, until the greek era of colonization was over, had been regarded as a huge island in and of itself) this isnt a huge point, but it dose set a pace; the truth is in the detials; Plato describes Atlantis as an island,with concentric rings with islands, with a channel going to the sea, and he then describes its country a large fertile plain, bordered by great mountians; this same geography can be applied to the area od Andalusia; the city of Tartessos itself; lovcated in a river delta, boirdered by many a rind of island and water, and evidence from satellit ephotos seems to indicate genuine concentric rings were present at one time; the country itself is a broad, fetile area, wonderful for farming, both crops and livestock, and, as stated before, is more then capablke of supporting a large, prosperous population, and give them everything they need to be happy in life; exactley how Plato described the Atlanteans.
Merchantile masterminds; the wealth of "Tar-atlant-os"
Now then, the basic geogrpahy described, the basic area well known for having mineral wealth (the oldest continous workign goldmines int he world are loated in the same region as Tartessos, mines that date back tot he Roman empire, and beyond), and the fertility of the region obvious by the sheer size its cities attained, even befor three-way crop rotation was introduced; Tartessos had just about every thing it wanted; food, water, luxury goods, both from its own territory in Spain, or more exotic goods from North Africa, and copius amounts of Gold, Copper, and eventually, though too late to matter for the Tartessians, Iron; yet, even in the midst of all this wealth, the tartessian kingdom lacked some items; such as soem fo those trade goods, and, more importantlly, tin, so criticle a substence to create bronze; the REAL factor of wealth inthe bronze age world, more valuble, even then gold for all the purposes it could be used for.
Now, teh region dosent have copius amounts of tin, at least none avialble without more modern mineing practices, so where did our Tartessians turn to? simple,l to the north; the region Asturias/Leon was anothe rmajor mining area in the Roman empire, and it surelly facored in tot he tartessian scheme of trade; but more important then Asturias, were the Scilly islands- the Scilly island shave long been in the pages of history, but thier history has never garnered much importence, and this quote is rather tellign fo the situation;
The area where Tarshish was supposedly located, the area of the Guadalquivir River in southwestern Spain, has a long history. In 1923 there was a late Bronze Age hoard of bronzes discovered off the coast of a city called Huelva. There were, among the many discoveries, an Irish lunate spearhead and some Cypriote finds.
That there were Irish finds in this area is not really surprising. In the area of northern Brittany lived a Celtic tribe which the ancients called the Oestrymians. This tribe was supposedly associated with the Tartessians, and were said to have helped those people mine the Scilly Islands off the southwest coast of Britain. That Celtic tribes as far apart as the Oestrymians and the Irish traded with one another is not surprising.
There is also an ancient tradition in Ireland that that island was invaded by the Irish from northern Spain. This was the group that tradition terms the Milesians.
It was often thought that the Phoenicians themselves mined the Scilly Islands. However, this new information tells us that the Tartessians, with the help of the local Oestrymians, actually mined the islands for tin. It makes sense, because in more historically recorded times, none other than Julius Caesar recorded how the Veneti, a Gaulish Celtic tribe in the same area of Brittany, were accomplished mariners. It is perhaps possible that the Oestrymians and the Veneti were even one and the same tribe, or closely related to one another.
while I dont particurley care to comment on any Tartessian invasion of Ireland (though, it would fit rather well with the whole Atlantis bit, one must admit) its clear that A)the Tartessians had clearlly established ties with the tribes borderign the Atlantic, and enaged in active trade, most notable, for cermonial objects (luxury goods), and for tin, a resource they needed so crucially for bronze
B)this leads one to conclude that Tartessos must have been a formidable naval power (and if a conques tof ireland had taken place, a formidible land military as well, a point that will eventually be touched on again, later)
C)the quote also introduces us to the next series, the references of Tartessos in the levent, where it was known as "Tarshish", or "Tharshish"
If Atlantis is in the Bible, then Michale Jackson is God; well, get ready to pray to the god of molestation, because here it is
Anyone familliar with the old Testiment fo the western monothesitic bible will know of a few vague references to a legendary city known as "Tarshish", and the references to it are very interesting indeed...
firstlly, its known as the :burden of Tyre", a refrence ot the Phoencians obviouslly, whos carthagian descsendce would take advatge of a city and people wrecked by natural disaster to destory them, and take over the valuble tin-trade tartessos had controled before hence, and more over, it is revealed that Tartessos had both a powerful navy, but quotation from a different work woudl better serve me, then being redundent in my own typing;
Getting back to a more pleasant vein of thought, Atlantis was supposed to have been a fabulously wealthy country. Again there is a match with Tartessus. Tarshish possessed "gold, and silver, ivory, apes and peacocks." Tarshish was in a perfect geographical position to obtain gold and silver from the nearby Sierra Morena mountains in southern Spain, if that is indeed where it was located. Ivory, apes and peacocks could have come from the nearby northern and western African coast.
Doing research into the lost city of Tartessus or Tarshish, the conclusion is that the city was formerly located in southwestern Spain, very near the modern city of Cadiz, which was called Gades in ancient times. The ships of Tarshish were said to be located on the Atlantic side of the Pillars of Hercules, this last being identified with modern Gibraltar. Gades was later the most important Phoenician city on the Atlantic Ocean.
Another Biblical reference to Tarshish is from Isaiah 23:1: "The burden of Tyre. Howl, ye ships of Tarshish: for it is laid waste, so that there is no house, no entering in: from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them."
This is an extremely interesting quotation for several reasons. One, it says that Tarshish was destroyed, just like the semi-mythical Atlantis it is supposed to have been. Second, it refers to Chittim, which Biblical scholars identify with the isle of Crete, south of the Greek mainland. Third, "the burden of Tyre" ties it in with that Phoenician city, either as a colony or as an independent trading ally of some sort.
Then we come to a quote from Psalms 48:7, which says: "Thou breakest the ships of Tarshish with an east wind."
Obviously the destruction of Tarshish came from the east. Some natural calamity, perhaps? Again a tie-in with Atlantis.
Genesis 10:4 tries to give a racial history of Tarshish: "And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim." It ties Tarshish with the Greeks or Cretans (Kittim) somehow. This could possibly be a reference to the island of Santorini or Thera, which blew up about 1500 BC. Some scholars think that this explosion led to the legend of Atlantis. It is possible that ancient lore combined what happened at Thera, with what happened to Tarshish, to form the legend of Atlantis. Javan refers to Caucasians or Europeans. So Tarshish must be located in or near Europe. Such as in southwestern Spain.
II Kings 10:22 says: "For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory and apes, and peacocks." Again the references to African natural products. Tharshish is just a variant spelling of Tarshish in the Bible.
Carthaginian coins have been found in the Azores Islands, proof that the ancient mariners had the ability to travel great distances from the shore.
There is a further mention of silver in the Bible in Jeremiah 10:9. "Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of workmen, and the hands of the founder; blue and purple their clothing; they are all the work of cunning men."
all fo the above is very interestic; its a biblic affirmation that;
A)Tartessos is wealthy
B)Tartessos had connections with the phoencians, as one would expect, with a people so involved with Atlantic trade, that they woudl estbalish eastern routes as well
C)the tartessian navy, as woudl be expected, was quite note worthy, and capapble of long distence travel; as one woudl also expect forma people who travled up the atlantic coast to at least the area of Normandy, if not all the wat to ireland
D)the mineral weath of this kingdom was AMAZING
all of thing are EXACTLEY the sort of descriptions we find rampant in the Atlaneon mythos; a welathy kingdom, strogn merchatile ties to even furthe rimrpove th ekingdosm wealth,a hose of different animals in the kingdom, and a powerful navy, though Plato describes the land forces far more then thos eof the sea, a powerful navy is useful for augumenting a powerful land army; a land army easilyl built from the rather high populations possibel in the region, and equipped with Tartessian gold, and bronze from local copper mines, and imported tin.
Interstinglly, it ALSO gives us a rather strange connection- a connection with Crete, the
other candidate for the real Atlantis.
Now this could be expalined by the times; the Minoans are well known to have had trade routes extending to at least Sardinia and Corsica, we have trade goods to proove it; extending the range just a little further, to Tartessos, would work in well, and the fact that trade was annual -every three years- works in well with what is suspected about Minoan-Corsican/Sardinian trade; not enough evidence is clearlly present to support anything more then an annual grand visit to the area, not a constant trade relation.
However, while this connection alone is worht merit, and if all other theories fail, is more then likelly the correct one; it is worthy to make a small detour to religion; the "Bull" is symbol that is very wide spread, but is very prevaletn in three area is such ancient times; Minoan Crete, Italy, and Spain; all three areas are well known to have placed a godo deal of impoirtance on the bull, and the name of Italy itself is derived from the word for "Bull calf", and the importenc eof th ebull as a religious symbol may go a way to explain why later, well after one woudl assume the bull had lost most of its prominece in italy, Roman trops hailed a god who was very closelly associated with the Bull- Sol Invicitus, otherwise known, as Mithra. Even to this day, the Importence of the Bull in culture for Iberia and southern France is ledgednary- bull fights are firmlly entreched in our minds abotu Spanish culture, and even in Crete today, we find that the cattle have a very important place in local fesitivities, but instead of being dedicated toa mother goddess, or a god of heroism and justice, its dedicated, for better or for worse mind you, to Jesus.
Normally this wouldnt amount to a great deal of anything; the Bull is a common fertility symbol, its importaence in many cultures is to be expected, but it also just happens that these cultures are associated with Atlantis; Crete being a fair rival fo rthe throne, and Italy being the eastern most mainland areas of firm "atlantena" territory; it also happens that Plato describes the bull as beign a very important symbol for the Atlanteans, important enough for the rulers; several subkings, ruled over by a high king, to include a religious Bull hunt in thier cerimonies for decideing law and order, and other kingdom needs in thier annual meetings.
Tartessos, and Sea people, and Atlantis, the people of the sea
Now, we have more then just a littl evidence support the claim for Atlantis being Tartessos, matchin Platonic scripture to real life facts, and more then a little logic applied to the situation that brings in little niches of information, that other wise seemd petty trivia with no bearing on anythign into a common whole, where they all make sense; the last great area, would be the sea peoples, and the fall of Atlantis; but, and I'm sorry to cut you all short whom have followed this far, will have wait; I'm very tired, and cannot continue this work, and keep it at the rather good quality (IMO) that it has gone on with thus far. I suggest you absorb, and review the information in your own heads, perhaps do a spot of your own reserch, and return, on my continuation of this argument, with a fresh, and open mind
