Atlatlist Rush

[Fish Man]

So far everyone knows of how powerful battering rams or camel archers are, but I would like to bring to light a previously overlooked and undervalued UU: the atlatlist. I had a crazy immortal pangaea standard CV with Maya, where I gained a valuable city and had to build 1 less settler by spamming 4 atlatlists/1 scarcher and rushing Athens on turn 40. None of the other AIs except Rome seemed to mind very much. Gave me a t295 CV and saved me a lot of pain from Alex's shenanigans. Oh, and I had a near perfect set of theming bonuses near the end.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I think this needs more playtesting, but at this point I can advocate atlatlist rush as a viable strat, especially seeing how none of the tier lists take into account the power of the Mayan UA in taking an AI cap BEFORE T40. There are several reasons why you might want to do this:

1. Dangerous/annoying neighbor, better kill it before it lays eggs...etc. Zulu/Greece
2. You want to take all their workers
3. They're probably gonna forward settle you
4. Their cap is JUICY (etc. riverside grassland + mining luxes)
5. They're too close for comfort

The advantages, if done successfully, are huge:

1. Highly developed 3-5 pop city on t40 without having to stunt growth/waste turns building a settler
2. Veteran defense force/garrison to deter future attacks
3. 1 less competitor for CS, resources, land, and victory
4. Occasionally, a free wonder! Greece finished Stonehenge, 1 turn before they died
5. Potential military threat eliminated
6. Nice way to kickstart a liberty domination game, if that's your playstyle

How to pull off:

1. If cap has 2-3 2f1h tiles in range, BO is scout-atlatlist-pyramid-atlatlistx3; if not, skip the pyramid for later...what comes next depends on the circumstances. Upgrade ruin for scout and/or warrior is highly beneficial but not required
2. Try to meet as few civs as possible to reduce warmonger penalty
3. By turn 30-40, rush enemy cap with atlatlists and eliminate target from game; make sure to do this before classical or before they get walls/c-bows, and before classical era to get 50% warmonger penalty reduction
4. Tech theology as normal for Maya BUT THEN mathematics for courthouse, that new cap is one of your 4 core cities now

Thanks for reading, and make sure to leave feedback on what you think!

 

[consentient]

I would like to bring to light a previously overlooked and undervalued UU: the atlatlist.

In general, I'm with you. I love to go full Honor with the Maya and spam these beauties. But I have some questions/points...

none of the tier lists take into account the power of the Mayan UA in taking an AI cap BEFORE T40.

The UA is about Great People, and there is no way you are going to get to Theology before T40. I really don't get what you mean. Do you mean UU?

There are several reasons why you might want to do this:

1. Dangerous/annoying neighbor, better kill it before it lays eggs...etc. Zulu/Greece
2. You want to take all their workers
3. They're probably gonna forward settle you
4. Their cap is JUICY (etc. riverside grassland + mining luxes)
5. They're too close for comfort

These apply to the game regardless of who it is. I agree it's better to take out Shaka early.

However, I think you get more value out of Atlatists if you go Honor left side. Liberty seems like you are only going to be a wee bit more effective than the standard CB rush.

What do you think?

 

[Gustavus Rex]

Interesting. What would the optimal BO be? Atlatlist/monument/spam Monument/spam or spam right away?

I think this is very situational. You want a close AI-capital with a bit open terrain. Atlatlists are weaker then Archers. Neglecting scouting, early culture and faith in favour of unit spam is very risky.

 

[vanatteveldt]

In general, I'm with you. I love to go full Honor with the Maya and spam these beauties. But I have some questions/points...

In your domination guide, you advise honor for attacking with xbows, and liberty for early (cbow) rushes. Were you thinking of something like (1) open honor, spam atlatlis, hopefully kill some barbs (2) get honor warrior code + atlatlist rush against 1-2 AI, (3) tech until philo -> machinery while finishing honor, eternal war

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

@Gustavus Rex: Sorry, but are you sure Atlatists are weaker than Archers? I think they have 5 combat strength and 7 ranged strength too. The only differences are having no required tech and the -10% production cost. They also cost 20 less gold to buy on standard speed.

@Undefeatable: As Gustavus said, wouldn't you like to add a Monument instead of Pyramid into your build order? As good as Pyramids are, finishing your first policy tree in good time is important - I'd say more important than having a religion. With a scout, a Pyramid and 4 Atlatists first, it looks like you wouldn't start on a Monument until turn 30+.

 

[Gustavus Rex]

@Gustavus Rex: Sorry, but are you sure Atlatists are weaker than Archers? I think they have 5 combat strength and 7 ranged strength too. The only differences are having no required tech and the -10% production cost. They also cost 20 less gold to buy on standard speed.

@Undefeatable: As Gustavus said, wouldn't you like to add a Monument instead of Pyramid into your build order? As good as Pyramids are, finishing your first policy tree in good time is important - I'd say more important than having a religion. With a scout, a Pyramid and 4 Atlatists first, it looks like you wouldn't start on a Monument until turn 30+.

I remembered them to be weaker but I checked and was wrong.

Tried to swing this on a couple of maps and I still think it's very situational... If skipping monument in early, i'd say Tradition is the strongest opener for letting you commit to a super early unit-spam.

To be continued...

 

[GoStu]

From reading the idea I'm guessing that the BO for this is "whatever you'd normally build" ---> mass Atlatl.

I can see this more as an ace up your sleeve rather than something you plan on doing from turn 0. It's only going to pay off if you have either a ripe land for plundering next door, or a pressing nuisance like Shaka who'll be a problem soon. If you're on something like Small Continents it's very possible to have nobody worth rushing, and all the Atlatl will go to waste.

 

[Fish Man]

The decision to do a rush comes after you finish building your first scout. There's a good chance you can scope out a nearby civ with your warrior in 5-7 turns to target, but if not, then build a second scout to give time for your 2 units to explore some more. Alternatively, if it looks like there are 3+ juicy city spots that don't require conquest, forgo it. By the time the 3rd build comes in, you should have decided. In my game Athens was in a troublesome spot, and I couldn't afford to leave it alive especially with where I planned to settle Tikal and Arabia forward-settling me.

Culture shortage is a problem, and the only solution I have is hope to find a culture ruin. Once you do so I advise going full tradition, rati, etc. afterwards if you're not planning anymore conquest. If you decide to go dom, then I advise referring to consentient as I'm not an expert at that type of thing. But...I would still advise going tradition, since +3 culture is invaluable, especially if you delay monument so much.

The point of the atlatlist rush is to be able to take over enemy caps WITHOUT the tech detour to construction, which conflicts with getting to education or theology early. Also, the sooner you take cap, the less resistance or diplo penalty, and you can start developing your city 20-ish turns earlier. You also don't have to spend 400-500 gold upgrading units.

I recommend pyramid over monument. The +2 science/faith guarantees quicker theology and a pantheon/religion, while a monument only expedites the inevitable completion of tradition. If you go honor though that might be different.

Hope that answers some questions.

 

[budweiser]

I've been thinking about trying this for a while, havent sat down to do it yet though. It might be good for one, but is it good for two? How about a whole continent?

 

[consentient]

In your domination guide, you advise honor for attacking with xbows, and liberty for early (cbow) rushes. Were you thinking of something like (1) open honor, spam atlatlis, hopefully kill some barbs (2) get honor warrior code + atlatlist rush against 1-2 AI, (3) tech until philo -> machinery while finishing honor, eternal war

My suggestion for Honor Left-Side with this strategy is because, since your Atlatists are collecting EVEN more experience from T0, they will get even more promotions. Rushing Atlatists and taking down a capital (and staying at war to XP farm from their other city) would be really, really strong with Honor Left-side.

I wouldn't barb hunt at all. I'd only do this strategy, as other posters have said, if there is a nearby weak neighbour (not so situational) and I'd do very little that was different from my standard Domination games except I'd buy settlers, probably.

Culture shortage is a problem, and the only solution I have is hope to find a culture ruin. Once you do so I advise going full tradition, rati, etc. afterwards if you're not planning anymore conquest. If you decide to go dom, then I advise referring to consentient as I'm not an expert at that type of thing. But...I would still advise going tradition, since +3 culture is invaluable, especially if you delay monument so much.

If you're not going for further conquest, I don't see the point in spending so many resources on it. You could have a stronger start for a peaceful game without the rush, I think.

The point of the atlatlist rush is to be able to take over enemy caps WITHOUT the tech detour to construction

It's a great idea, and I've done it once or twice so I know it works, but I wouldn't recommend it if you're going for a peaceful VC.

I recommend pyramid over monument. The +2 science/faith guarantees quicker theology and a pantheon/religion, while a monument only expedites the inevitable completion of tradition. If you go honor though that might be different.

Military Caste gives enough culture. You don't need that much if you're going for Domination, because the captured capitals will be teeming with culture that the wonderwhores have accumulated.

For this strategy, and this strategy only, I'd delay building Pyramids until after I'd captured a capital or two, if I was going to build them at all

 

[beetle]

For this strategy, and this strategy only, I'd delay building Pyramids until after I'd captured a capital or two, if I was going to build them at all

So is your recommended initial BO: scout, scout, Atlatist x4 ?

The two scouts are there just as convention: If you knew an Atlatist rush would from T0, maybe skip them?

 

[vanatteveldt]

I often prefer opening with scout - monument. After that, you can decide to use another scout, spam atlatlists, or (if e.g. on an island or peninsula) proceed to granary/shrine.

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

In the Spain ICL#28, Stormtrooper412 said that he'll work on a Maya map for one of the next challenges. It'll be personally modified by him, so we'll see what he cooks up

In any case, that might be a good chance for a few of us to try out this strategy, assuming the map conditions are right. I'll post my results there.

 

[CraigMak]

I have always considered the mayan UU to be crap. The only benefit being that you don't have to research archery. I mean it's weaker than a normal archer and dies to like 2 hits of anything. They also cost MORE gold to upgrade to a composite.

I once had some one try something like this on me. 4 - 5 atlatlists right off the bat and went straight for my cap. They all died to city shots/normal archer and failed miserably. He proceeded to rage quit.

What difficulty level are we talking about here? They seem really squishy to me and will get 1 shot at higher difficulties.

 

[Browd]

They are no more fragile than regular archers - both are 5 combat strength and 7 ranged combat strength.

 

[TheMathmagician]

Hmm... I suppose you could pull this off if the target was on flat land and you had a nice salt start like in the screenie.

 

[consentient]

Well, considering I regularly take the first capital with Archers if I sense I can take it before CB, Atlatists come earlier so there is no question about the viability of this strategy.

Craigmak - please bear in mind that this is a single player thread and that just because you've not seen it done doesn't make it invalid.

 

[Bimblecrumbs]

OP said immortal difficulty. It's certainly doable, though helped by favourable terrain, AI proximity, a strong start and a flatland capital.

I agree with consentient. Since archer rushes often work and atlatlist rushes can happen earlier, it's a feasible strategy.

 

[CraigMak]

They are no more fragile than regular archers - both are 5 combat strength and 7 ranged combat strength.

If that's true then it was recently changed. I distinctly remember them costing less hammers and being weaker as well as costing more gold to upgrade to composites.

 

[Browd]

They do cost more gold to upgrade, but only because they are cheaper to buy/build than regular archers.