Attacking Vassal pairs.

[Jaggedmallard]

Hi I am currently attempting to gain control of my starting continent and while destroying one faction I found out that the two others had become a Vassal pair.
First of all is it possible to get the two other Civs to stop being each others Vassals.
Secondly should I attack them?
Thirdly if I do attack should I attack the weaker Civ or the stronger one?

 

[lymond]

Sometimes a vassal will break away from his/her lord voluntarily, but generally if you want to break it you have to go to war.

One option to consider is bribing a strong AI into war which might expedite the vassal breaking away. However, that can be risky and it can backfire.

If you go to war, I see 3 options. Fight the lord first, fight the vassal first, or fight them both at the same time. Much of that depends on your own military capabilities. First and foremost though, you must consider the logistical factors. Which AI is closer - the lord or vassal? If you border both you will at least need a defensive front on one border.

If you focus on the lord and start reducing his power (taking cities and killing units), it's highly likely that the vassal will break away. If you attack the vassal you might as well just take him out completely. Usually they are fairly weak, which is why they are a vassal in the first place, that is, a) they lost a lot during some prior war b) they are small and peace vassaled (Pacal and Gandhi do this often)

Regardless, your main goal should not be breaking the relationship, but increasing your empire by taking out or vassaling one or both of these AIs.

edit: and welcome to CFC!!!

 

[Gumbolt]

I think I read somewhere if the vassel or the master loses 50% of his cities they may elect to break free from the master. The idea being the master is too weak or the master can no longer protect the vassel. It's all in the code somewhere.

 

[shadojack]

As an example:

In a recent game as Zara I am the only northern neighbor to Augustus Caesar. We both have about the same number of cities. I am gearing up for a Cuir war to take him out, in the middle of a Golden age building War Elephants.

Wang Kong is to Augustus's east with 3 cities. Izzy is to my Southwest, the tips of our empires just touching. Wang, Augustus and I share the same religion.

Izzy demands gold from me which would slow my beeline to gunpowder. I just libbed Military Tradition. I refuse and the fist goes up. I had been sending the Elephants to Caesar's borders in preparation for wiping him out. I change their direction and send a scout into Izzy lands. Sure enough her stack is in her city to the Southwest. She declares on me.

I fight her off as gunpowder comes in, upgrade a small group of Elephants to Cuir and then go in to take one city. She capitulates. Meanwhile Wang capitulates to Augustus.

I now proceed with upgrading my Elephants and building more Cuir. Because Augustus is closer than Wang I attack him with two stacks, one with 12 Cuir, and the other with 25 to take out both his main and a secondary stack simultaneously. I direct Izzy to attack his westernmost city. Rome is down to 3 cities in about 6 turns. Wang breaks free, I take a cease fire from him and finish Rome off in another 2 turns. I then wipe Wang out in 3 turns.

 

[Gumbolt]

The thing is most vassels are such because they are weak. 3-4 cities with normally no real stack. if you plan to attack with a tech advantage then it should not matter. Curs vs mace/pike/LB/knights.

 

[Jaggedmallard]

Thanks for the help.
I attacked the vassal first because my border with the master was much more chokepointy with mountains so I built a few forts and stationed a few defenders there and that held the master off.
The vassal was quite weak and lost easily but by the time the (previous) master was willing to capitulate he only had his capital and a few low level units guarding it so I just captured it.

 

[Handel]

Which reminds me to ask can you vassalize a civ which has its own vassals?

 

[Negator_UK]

You can't vassalise a civ until it has no vassals. Either get them to break away or kill them.