Austrian UU's
- Thread starter Bungus
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Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Hussar. Suggested stats were 7.3.3, but that might have to be modified for balance.
W.i.n.t.e.r
Frozen!
Hussar = Hungary
RedAlert
Love one another
Well, it depends when you are talking about. Although Hussars may be Hungarian originally, later, Hussars were a very important componant of the Austrian military. (Not to mention the Polish)
The Hussar would still make a perfectly fine UU for Austria, especially if you don't even have Hungary or any other nation who used the Hussar as civs anyway.
Just as a side note, there are still hussar units in countries today, including Canada.
The Hussar would still make a perfectly fine UU for Austria, especially if you don't even have Hungary or any other nation who used the Hussar as civs anyway.
Just as a side note, there are still hussar units in countries today, including Canada.
RedAlert
Love one another
If you are going for an Austrian ground unit, a Tyrolean Jaeger (or just Jaeger for short) would probably be the best replacement for the rifleman. Never really used rifles, as far as I know, but unfortunately there is no unit between musketman and rifleman, so rifleman is close enough. Although Grenzers may have been around at the same time (I honestly don't know), Grenzers were originally soldiers who defended the Grenz (hence their name) region of Austria from the turks, at a time before riflemen.
So perhaps Grenzer would replace musketman, and Jaeger / Tyrolean Jaeger would replace rifleman?
But besides all that, I would still go for the hussar. In my opinion, it had a greater inpact in Austrian history, and around this time, Austria's cavalry was more important than her Infantry. (That is, austrian infantry really wasn't up to the standards of some of the other nations in europe)
by the way, there are a few ways to spell Jaeger. 'Jager' or 'Jagar' are some others.
So perhaps Grenzer would replace musketman, and Jaeger / Tyrolean Jaeger would replace rifleman?
But besides all that, I would still go for the hussar. In my opinion, it had a greater inpact in Austrian history, and around this time, Austria's cavalry was more important than her Infantry. (That is, austrian infantry really wasn't up to the standards of some of the other nations in europe)
by the way, there are a few ways to spell Jaeger. 'Jager' or 'Jagar' are some others.
i agree. hussar would be best. afaik, there's already an austrian civ here ... and an austrian civ included in the rhye-mod. btw: in english it should be "tyrolean hunter" ("jäger" or "jaeger" - is hunter in german, it's not jagar (?) who's spelling that? but that's peanuts 
)
)
RedAlert
Love one another
Well, I knew it meant hunter (but now everyone else knows, so it's a good thing you said that) I just think Jaeger sounds better.
I forget where exactly it's called Jagar (or maybe it isn't after all). I just know that in different places in different languages the spelling is variated, but it all means the same thing.
I forget where exactly it's called Jagar (or maybe it isn't after all). I just know that in different places in different languages the spelling is variated, but it all means the same thing.
W.i.n.t.e.r
Frozen!
Well, Austrians call it "Jäger" (or Jaeger) - and no, there is no other possible spelling since its unique to that language.RedAlert said:
I favour the Jäger myself, yet if anyone would like to go for cavalry use the Austrian Dragoner (Dragoon), sicne you mention the importance of Austrian cavalry. Btw. the importance is exagerated: Austria had the largest ammount of artillery and standing army of line infantry in Europe until after Napoleonic times.
Austria had several regiments of elite heavy cavalry, the Dragoons, while the Hussars are by default very light cavalry! The units within the Austrian Army were all exclusively Hungarian (i.e. all ranks filled by ethnic Magyars)
W.i.n.t.e.r
Frozen!
Hussar:
"The first hussars were raised by King Matthias I Corvinus of Hungary in 1485 during his war against the Turks. The hussars fought successfully against the Turkish Spahis. The word hussar (pronounced huh-ZAR, huh-SAR, or hoo-ZAR; SAMPA: [hU"zAr]) derives from huszár ("highwayman"), a type of flamboyant 15th century Hungarian cavalryman.
Afterward various other countries copied the model and formed light cavalry units of their own. Austrians hired Hungarian hussars to fight against Turkey. Frederick the Great used hussars extensively during the War of the Austrian Succession."
So much to your theory that it has anything to do with Austria... similarly the Mongolian UU would be a Korean Spearman (if we had any)
"The first hussars were raised by King Matthias I Corvinus of Hungary in 1485 during his war against the Turks. The hussars fought successfully against the Turkish Spahis. The word hussar (pronounced huh-ZAR, huh-SAR, or hoo-ZAR; SAMPA: [hU"zAr]) derives from huszár ("highwayman"), a type of flamboyant 15th century Hungarian cavalryman.
Afterward various other countries copied the model and formed light cavalry units of their own. Austrians hired Hungarian hussars to fight against Turkey. Frederick the Great used hussars extensively during the War of the Austrian Succession."
So much to your theory that it has anything to do with Austria... similarly the Mongolian UU would be a Korean Spearman (if we had any)
RedAlert
Love one another
I'm quite aware that the austrians copied and / or hired the hussar from the hungarians. In fact, I know it from the same source you quote. But even taking that into account, the hussar would still be a valid candidate for an Austrian UU, as it was still important the Austrian military. This especially providing you didn't have a Hungarian civ to give the hussar to to begin with, in which case, why not give it to Austria?
And Jaeger is not unique to the german language. In sweden, for example, it is Jägare.
And Jaeger is not unique to the german language. In sweden, for example, it is Jägare.
W.i.n.t.e.r
Frozen!
No, the Austrians only hired them. You read the same sources but you don't seem to draw the same synthesis. Equaly you could take Kroat scouts as an important unit of the Austrian army and elevate those to UU status.
The point is that you are looking for a "Unique Unit" of a particular civ. The Austrians invented the Jäger unit, REGARDLESS of any copy cats amongst their fellow European contemporaries. They invented this kind of military formation, while the Hussar is clearly a non- Austrian unit, by having been invented by the Magyar people. That is why I wouldn't give it to Austria: It is not Austrian at all!
The word Jäger is German. Would you think it possible that other Germanic languages hold similar wording for the same object? (English "Ox"; German "Ochse") You want an Austrian UU, I don't see the point in not calling it by its correct and particular German denomination, and not in Swedish...
The point is that you are looking for a "Unique Unit" of a particular civ. The Austrians invented the Jäger unit, REGARDLESS of any copy cats amongst their fellow European contemporaries. They invented this kind of military formation, while the Hussar is clearly a non- Austrian unit, by having been invented by the Magyar people. That is why I wouldn't give it to Austria: It is not Austrian at all!
The word Jäger is German. Would you think it possible that other Germanic languages hold similar wording for the same object? (English "Ox"; German "Ochse") You want an Austrian UU, I don't see the point in not calling it by its correct and particular German denomination, and not in Swedish...
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
BTW, I suggested the Hussar since it is included in C3C.
RedAlert
Love one another
Actually, we get the exact same things out of the same information. We simply have different opinions concerning those things. And I will not claim yours is any less true / valid as mine. However, I will continue to support mine, even if (and I don't, believe it or not) see anything necessarily wrong with yours.
To prove this, I would like to point out that I do have a Hungarian civ as opposed to an Austrian civ, and I have given my Hungarian civ the Hussar.
However, Bungus is looking for an Austrian UU, not a hungarian one. So I suggested the Hussar, because regardless of where it came from, or if the Austrians hired it, or whatever, the Austrians still had the hussar and used the hussar. And the hussar must have been pretty important, if the Austrians and so many other nations went so far as to hire or copy the hussar in the first place! I say, if Bungus keeps the javelin thrower as the Mayan UU, or the swiss mercinary as the dutch one, or the numidian mercinary as the Carthaginian one, etc. etc., then by all means, he could and if he wants it, should make the Austrian UU the Hussar. And no, I don't necessarily agree with any of those unique unit choices. *And I do not make the claim that the hussar would be the best unique unit for Austria*, only that it should be considered. I agree with you that perhaps an Austrian dragoon might even be a better choice. (Though I don't think heavy cavalry should be considered over light cavalry just because it is heavy cavalry) I am merely thinking in terms of "what units (no matter where the heck they come from) are important to consider for the Austrian unique unit" I would not put a croatian scout as high on the importance list as a Hussar for Austria, just like even though Britain had/has hussars, on a list of British units in order of imiportance, the hussar would not be anywher near the top. Why? Britain has a lot more important units. Austria? Yes, there are still more important units than the hussar, but, not nearly as many. So, I support the hussar along with any other of the candidate units in this thread.
Now, to talk about the Jaeger. I did not say the Austrian Jaeger should be called by a swedish name. (And to the extent of my knowledge, the Jaeger being originally Prussian and not Austrian to begin with anyway, if you want to talk about who had what first) I merely pointed out that I knew that it is spelled different ways, whether in different languages or the same language (granted, some of those spellings could be and probably are incorrect, but those who spell it those ways do not know this) Anyway, I just spelled the word a few different ways so other wouldn't come griping to me about how 'it should be spelled like this'. Was that ever a mistake. And it doesn't matter where the word comes from in the first place, or what language group it belongs to. Plain and simple - in Sweden it is Jägare. You wouldn't expect the Swedes to start spelling the word differently just because it may or may not be derived from somewhere else.
If I was going to say anthing else I've forgotton it by now, I'm tired of this typing and this nonsense. (sorry, I don't mean that what you are saying is nonsense, I just call all this nonsense because I'm not really an arguementative person by nature)
Let me just say: Whether I'm right or wrong, I've still said what I've said, and my opinion is still my opinion. I think we are both guilty here of being nitpickers and arguing over a few lousy details. As this thread is about helping Bungus find a unique unit for Austria, and he will choose whatever he thinks is best. So, perhaps we can concentrate on what I hope we can agree on:
All the mentioned units have been mentioned for a reason, and Bungus will still
choose whatever he desires, no matter what you or I would choose. Some units are obviously better choices than others, but noone here has mentioned any unit that they did not honestly believe Bungus should consider. But it is also important that we give reasons why Bungus would be best choosing one unit over another, which we have done to the best of our ability, regardless of what is correct or more correct.
To prove this, I would like to point out that I do have a Hungarian civ as opposed to an Austrian civ, and I have given my Hungarian civ the Hussar.
However, Bungus is looking for an Austrian UU, not a hungarian one. So I suggested the Hussar, because regardless of where it came from, or if the Austrians hired it, or whatever, the Austrians still had the hussar and used the hussar. And the hussar must have been pretty important, if the Austrians and so many other nations went so far as to hire or copy the hussar in the first place! I say, if Bungus keeps the javelin thrower as the Mayan UU, or the swiss mercinary as the dutch one, or the numidian mercinary as the Carthaginian one, etc. etc., then by all means, he could and if he wants it, should make the Austrian UU the Hussar. And no, I don't necessarily agree with any of those unique unit choices. *And I do not make the claim that the hussar would be the best unique unit for Austria*, only that it should be considered. I agree with you that perhaps an Austrian dragoon might even be a better choice. (Though I don't think heavy cavalry should be considered over light cavalry just because it is heavy cavalry) I am merely thinking in terms of "what units (no matter where the heck they come from) are important to consider for the Austrian unique unit" I would not put a croatian scout as high on the importance list as a Hussar for Austria, just like even though Britain had/has hussars, on a list of British units in order of imiportance, the hussar would not be anywher near the top. Why? Britain has a lot more important units. Austria? Yes, there are still more important units than the hussar, but, not nearly as many. So, I support the hussar along with any other of the candidate units in this thread.
Now, to talk about the Jaeger. I did not say the Austrian Jaeger should be called by a swedish name. (And to the extent of my knowledge, the Jaeger being originally Prussian and not Austrian to begin with anyway, if you want to talk about who had what first) I merely pointed out that I knew that it is spelled different ways, whether in different languages or the same language (granted, some of those spellings could be and probably are incorrect, but those who spell it those ways do not know this) Anyway, I just spelled the word a few different ways so other wouldn't come griping to me about how 'it should be spelled like this'. Was that ever a mistake. And it doesn't matter where the word comes from in the first place, or what language group it belongs to. Plain and simple - in Sweden it is Jägare. You wouldn't expect the Swedes to start spelling the word differently just because it may or may not be derived from somewhere else.
If I was going to say anthing else I've forgotton it by now, I'm tired of this typing and this nonsense. (sorry, I don't mean that what you are saying is nonsense, I just call all this nonsense because I'm not really an arguementative person by nature)
Let me just say: Whether I'm right or wrong, I've still said what I've said, and my opinion is still my opinion. I think we are both guilty here of being nitpickers and arguing over a few lousy details. As this thread is about helping Bungus find a unique unit for Austria, and he will choose whatever he thinks is best. So, perhaps we can concentrate on what I hope we can agree on:
All the mentioned units have been mentioned for a reason, and Bungus will still
choose whatever he desires, no matter what you or I would choose. Some units are obviously better choices than others, but noone here has mentioned any unit that they did not honestly believe Bungus should consider. But it is also important that we give reasons why Bungus would be best choosing one unit over another, which we have done to the best of our ability, regardless of what is correct or more correct.
hmm .. nice discussion .. but if you argue, that the hussars were mostly hungarian, you must realize, that in this time being a soldier of a country didn't mean to be a member of the major or ruling ethnicity, mostly mercenaries, and military service in the army was by all means not willingly.
it's a question about civ philosophy what's the concept of a civ?
difficult answer. i think, hussar's okay.
it's a question about civ philosophy
what's the concept of a civ? difficult answer. i think, hussar's okay.
Bungus
Archont of Cootertown
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2004
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Wow, thanks for all the feedback.
RedAlert has a good point on the Hussar: If it was used for Austria, it would not be the only civ to use foriegn mercenaries as their unique unit.
The Jaeger sounds like a good choice, though, as I like the idea of Rifleman UU. It would be the only one in the game. I'll google it to find some more info in when I get some time later tonight, but mean while does anyone have any offhand knowledge of when they were used, and what type of firearms/tactics they used? If they didn't use rifles at some point in history it'd make a pretty bad replacement.
Grenzer sounds like an alright Musketman UU, or preferably a flintlock/neapoleonic era infantry replacement if you play with one (I do).
Anyway, its kind of ironic that you guys are arguing over which one would be the best UU, as I play with three. Call me crazy, but I like the extra variety it gives each civ. So, while I'd hate to break up an arguement, these are all good suggestions so far.
RedAlert has a good point on the Hussar: If it was used for Austria, it would not be the only civ to use foriegn mercenaries as their unique unit.
The Jaeger sounds like a good choice, though, as I like the idea of Rifleman UU. It would be the only one in the game. I'll google it to find some more info in when I get some time later tonight, but mean while does anyone have any offhand knowledge of when they were used, and what type of firearms/tactics they used? If they didn't use rifles at some point in history it'd make a pretty bad replacement.
Grenzer sounds like an alright Musketman UU, or preferably a flintlock/neapoleonic era infantry replacement if you play with one (I do).
Anyway, its kind of ironic that you guys are arguing over which one would be the best UU, as I play with three. Call me crazy, but I like the extra variety it gives each civ. So, while I'd hate to break up an arguement, these are all good suggestions so far.
Goldflash
Civ III Modder, Civ VII Player
If I remeber correctly Englad had a regiment of Hussars... and they still have them.. they Ride around in Tanks now, however.
Hussars became a Type of Cavalry (armed with a Sabre, if I remember correctly) and.. alot of European nations had them.
Hussars became a Type of Cavalry (armed with a Sabre, if I remember correctly) and.. alot of European nations had them.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Here's something to think about.
The Dutch were not the only ones to hire Swiss, the Portugese were not the only ones to build Carracks, and the Man-O-War, IIRC, was not exclusively Brittish.
The Dutch were not the only ones to hire Swiss, the Portugese were not the only ones to build Carracks, and the Man-O-War, IIRC, was not exclusively Brittish.
Bungus
Archont of Cootertown
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,165
Okay, the Austrian Jaegers did use rifles, and were around at the turn of the century, so they seem to fit the bill for a Rifleman UU. Only problem is, are there any units that could pass as a Jaeger?
There are a number of cavalry units that work as a hussar (including one in Conquests).
Now both of these are from the late medieval, early industrial age. Any suggestions for early medieval/ancient(yeah, I guess they weren't around, but Austria's ancestors had to be up to something) or maybe even mid-late industrial (ww2)?
There are a number of cavalry units that work as a hussar (including one in Conquests).
Now both of these are from the late medieval, early industrial age. Any suggestions for early medieval/ancient(yeah, I guess they weren't around, but Austria's ancestors had to be up to something) or maybe even mid-late industrial (ww2)?
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