Modern age debug test game report

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Since stock game even on a competitive difficulty is mostly decided in industrial age, we rarely get to see a proper modern age. This is a test version of my epic game mod aiming to improve the the epic game itself. This thread will show case modern age warfare (with C3X applied of course) and the things I've found out.

First mystery first: How the heck does Khotan get to size 13? There is absolutely no improvement allowing it to do so. I've checked in the editor if any of the improvements have accidentally have allow city size 3 checked. But no.

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To confirm, I drafted Khotan down to size 12, irrigated to allow a food surplus and then tried to join a worker to see if it can get back to size 13. The city couldn't. So strange.

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Back to the game. I play as the Mil, Exp, Com Turco-Mongols. The traits are geared towards con/dom victory so I aggressively weakened my neighbors with alternating wars. I'm very pleased with the changes made including ptw style targeting, fixed fortification improvements, nerfing of armies, C3X perfuming of improvements, nerfing specialists, increased number of beaker multiplier improvements.

No longer could I simply keep going and taking out technologically advanced AIs with an SOD of ancient catapults and swordsmen armies while losing next to nothing doing so. This is on Deity. I tried my best to wage war and my stock games on Deity usually don't go past 1500 AD. The game lasting this long is due to the improved AI performance.

Also, the main reason I couldn't just destroy my neighbors is that Egypt needed to be contained. For that, I needed their production. Keeping them at war with Egypt slowed down that run away AI's science and city development. I fought Egypt at the 1 tile isthmus with high ground choke point. The frustrating thing is that the allied AIs even with ROP will fortify a unit on that 1 tile, preventing others from joining the fight. So I had to choose between not having allies fight, or let the Egyptians flood past the isthmus. They have 80 tanks and a huge artillery stack. The moment I venture out in the open they will run me over. The plan is to hold the mountain fortress near Thermopylae, bait the AI to flood their tanks past that and bombard them. But even that may not be enough now that the AI knows how to use artillery. I'm not even sure with the combined artillery and air power bombardment that I can hold the mountain fortress.

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It doesn't look like this can be won by brute strength. If militarily this can't be won then I can have a save where I go for diplo or space. But I wanna use this game to showcase competitive late game warfare. I will need to somehow cut off their their strat resources. Strategic bombardment will be needed. And even tactical nukes.

Also, being mobilized means the AI can't build factories or size allowing improvements since they're not flagged as militaristic. Do you think that's worth it for the AI? Is the short term boost in shield output worth their cities being delayed for a very long time? A smart human player will keep the AI forever at war. I know that the AI doesn't stay mobilized forever even if they're at war and will catch war time breaks to build some heavily perfumed improvements. But as you can see here, Egypt still has yet to allow many of their core cities to grow into metros. I may need to give size 3 allowing improvements the militaristic flag. Maybe militaristic civs build their own version with no discount.

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First mystery first: How the heck does Khotan get to size 13? There is absolutely no improvement allowing it to do so. I've checked in the editor if any of the improvements have accidentally have allow city size 3 checked. But no.
The city could have lost the building that allows to reach size 3 by beeing conquered after having reached size 3 and that building being destroyed when the city was conquered.
 
The city could have lost the building that allows to reach size 3 by beeing conquered after having reached size 3 and that building being destroyed when the city was conquered.
I thought size allowing city improvements are indestructible through bombardment and sackings? Also, Khotan is a native Turco-Mongol city that has never built any size 3 allowing improvement nor has the city been conquered.
 
I've checked in the editor if any of the improvements have accidentally have allow city size 3 checked. But no

If there is no improvement included in the .biq with the "Allows Size3" flag, but the Size2 town "cap" is set lower than the maximum supportable citizens in any given BFC, then the City will grow to a Metro without restraint.

This can (also) be seen in the Sengoku Conquest, where a 'Duct is needed to reach Size2 (Pop7+) if freshwater is not available (as in the epic game), but there is no Hospital-equivalent building, so Size3 (Pop13+) can be achieved so long as there is food surplus to do so (this can also lead to population-pollution).

It's interesting that you couldn't add a citizen back to your Pop12 town, though. That suggests to me that either there was no food surplus (but you said you added irrigation...? Had a citizen been converted to a Specialist due to drafting unhappiness?) -- or that the "Allows Size3" building doesn't just enable 'natural' growth to Size3, but also Worker-joins to Size3...?
 
Well, in my mod there is a size 3 allowing improvement called "Sewer System". But Khotan has never built it. Yes, I made sure that was a food surplus before trying to join back to size 13. I suppose this must have been a rare bug.
 
I thought size allowing city improvements are indestructible through bombardment and sackings?
Yes, this is correct. I forgot it when writing my quick reply. At present I have no other explanation for it, but that it is this little ghost inside Civ 3, who leads us by the nose from time to time. 👻
 
The AI's artillery stack is stuck in Buhen and wouldn't move out despite there being a clear road through the isthmus. So the tanks advanced alone, got chewed up by my artillery while my mountain fortress never got threatened by their bombardment. The AI also sends in their bombers unescorted by air superiority fighters. So intercepting and setting up flak traps wasn't hard. I've gotta think of a away for the AI to have air superiority fighters with high def stats bombing.

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Tactical nukes are absolutely overpowered. I wiped out the entire artillery stack stuck in Buhen with 1 Tactical Nuke. Also, units with 2 HPs or less instantly perish within that tile and I think the surrounding ones. Because I killed off all the Egyptian artillery pieces which have -5hp in my mod (so they are killable but don't become bombardment sponges). That must have been a stack of 50 pieces or more plus their escorts. All that wiped out with just 300 shields investment. I suffered zero consequences diplomatically since any human player would have diplomatically isolated the victim. I'm gonna have to modify nukes. They're too cheap the way they are. Maybe tactical nukes should just be really beefy cruise missile type units that excel at busting armies or fortified units inside metros/mountain fortresses. And the real nukes are gonna have to be more expensive.

Also, here's a spotting of the AI using a full capacity transport for an overseas invasion. If it has so many units and railroads this will become more common. Still, tanks with no defensive escorts are deadmeat upon landing. I'd fear 8 marines floating around near my coastal core more than 8 tanks which are easily repelled upon landing.
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Finally, here's another never before seen bug: The save file got corrupted and can't be opened again. Good thing I made multiple saves.
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Since stock game even on a competitive difficulty is mostly decided in industrial age, we rarely get to see a proper modern age.
Have you ever won a non-diplo Sid game on larger maps (Huge/ 30% or 40% Large/ 40% Standard) without using exploits (Great Library elevator, trade route pillaging, using large amount of armies (since the AI can't use these well))? I would be rather astonished if you managed to do so before entering the Modern Era. I don't think I've ever seen such a game even on HoF.
 
Have you ever won a non-diplo Sid game on larger maps (Huge/ 30% or 40% Large/ 40% Standard) without using exploits (Great Library elevator, trade route pillaging, using large amount of armies (since the AI can't use these well))? I would be rather astonished if you managed to do so before entering the Modern Era. I don't think I've ever seen such a game even on HoF.
Never played stock game on Sid. But high level ones I've seen involve things I consider exploits or archipelago contact cheese. Right now I'm very happy with the current C3X improving the Deity AI. The games I've managed to clinch are all into Modern Age at 1700-1800 AD.

The AI uses armies with C3X very well if you have armies only have 1 capacity and an HP bonus and a very heavy perfume. To make sure the AI builds the Mil Acad in a high shield city I tied it the the Palace.

When the AI gets to use its artillery things get a lot harder. Unfortunately, even with C3X, it's not 100% consistent. The AI would be stuck if it can't have a path to an enemy city. Also, if a defender is not assigned to escort, the artillery piece would not just be stuck in the city, but also never fire. The only solution to that right now is to give artillery a high defense stat, change the cost accordingly and then disable the escort function with C3X. But that's quite a departure from stock game.
 
Never played stock game on Sid. But high level ones I've seen involve things I consider exploits or archipelago contact cheese.
What do you mean by 'archipelago contact cheese'?
The AI uses armies with C3X very well if you have armies only have 1 capacity and an HP bonus and a very heavy perfume. To make sure the AI builds the Mil Acad in a high shield city I tied it the the Palace.

When the AI gets to use its artillery things get a lot harder. Unfortunately, even with C3X, it's not 100% consistent. The AI would be stuck if it can't have a path to an enemy city. Also, if a defender is not assigned to escort, the artillery piece would not just be stuck in the city, but also never fire. The only solution to that right now is to give artillery a high defense stat, change the cost accordingly and then disable the escort function with C3X. But that's quite a departure from stock game.
Yes I've read this about C3X. Can't wait to play it myself some day. However, since it still keeps getting updated now and then I think I will wait until it has been completed for a while.
 
What do you mean by 'archipelago contact cheese'?

Yes I've read this about C3X. Can't wait to play it myself some day. However, since it still keeps getting updated now and then I think I will wait until it has been completed for a while.
People play archipelago because it keeps the AI from contacting each other for a long time. Also, C3C shifts trading communication all the way to Medieval age. Since the AI doesn't actively suicide explore with curraghs and galleys, it's only the human player doing so. That's why Seafaring is considered such a good trait.

The AI will scout with any Sea Power strategy unit. I've perfumed an AI only early ship heavily and set the unit to 2. That means the AI will build 2 of them ASAP and scout. That's exactly how I got Expansionist civs to properly build scouts. So far on pangaea the Seafaring AI scouts well with their early scout ships. But will they risk it in in dangerous waters?
 
People play archipelago because it keeps the AI from contacting each other for a long time. Also, C3C shifts trading communication all the way to Medieval age. Since the AI doesn't actively suicide explore with curraghs and galleys, it's only the human player doing so. That's why Seafaring is considered such a good trait.

The AI will scout with any Sea Power strategy unit. I've perfumed an AI only early ship heavily and set the unit to 2. That means the AI will build 2 of them ASAP and scout. That's exactly how I got Expansionist civs to properly build scouts. So far on pangaea the Seafaring AI scouts well with their early scout ships. But will they risk it in in dangerous waters?
I see, yeah I also only play on Pangaea. However, there is an argument to be made that Continental maps may actually be tougher than Pangaea on some victory conditions, especially on Sid difficulty. Since the player usually can (and will) play more aggressively and smarter than the AI, they end up taking over more cities than the AI. On continents an AI from the other continent may turn faster into a runaway one. The strongest civ seems more motivated when the continent gets out of balance. Giving the same size, they will likely tech quite a bit faster than the player, and are also incredibly hard to conquer given their very large amounts of units. I don't think the human player on Sid difficulty could even outpace the AI in that given situation.

And they may not be as much as a direct threat to the human player, but are very hard to be conquered.
 
I see, yeah I also only play on Pangaea. However, there is an argument to be made that Continental maps may actually be tougher than Pangaea on some victory conditions, especially on Sid difficulty. Since the player usually can (and will) play more aggressively and smarter than the AI, they end up taking over more cities than the AI. On continents an AI from the other continent may turn faster into a runaway one. The strongest civ seems more motivated when the continent gets out of balance. Giving the same size, they will likely tech quite a bit faster than the player, and are also incredibly hard to conquer given their very large amounts of units. I don't think the human player on Sid difficulty could even outpace the AI in that given situation.

And they may not be as much as a direct threat to the human player, but are very hard to be conquered.


Continents I've yet to play on Deity let alone Sid but I can imagine not being able to stop a run away AI on another continent. Sure, you can pay the others to gang up on it, but since the AIs are bad at naval warfare don't expect the other weak AIs to do much. With C3X you can perfume the UN, Apollo Program and spaceship parts. The run away AI on its own continent fortress will be actively trying to win peacefully and you're on a timer.

Trying to land would be very difficult (esp with my mod nerfing armies, the AI having quite an air force and artillery arm and their own armies). You'd have to be creative and try to strangle the AI from the sea. Maybe amphibious attacks to raze coastal core cities to weaken it. Maybe resorting to a nuclear exchange and then a daring raid to destroy the UN or space ship.
 
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