Authority Deep Dive Round 2

KlHannibal2

Warlord
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
229
Playing around a bit more with Authority on the new version. So I still think some adjustments to Authority would be good. Instead of looking a new abilities, I'm seeing what a reshuffling of abilities could look like. Ultimately I think part of Authority's issue is that its military and economic bonuses are spread out....where realistically Authority needs those economic bonuses early to get the party started. The military bonuses can wait as the Authority player switches from barb/CS harrasment into full scale war with another civ.

So here is the idea:

Authority V2

Opener

Old: +25% combat bonus versus barbarians, reveal barbarian camps. +1 prod per city. Gain culture when killing units and clearing barbarian camps.
New: Unchanged

Imperium (now 1st left policy)
Old: A free settler appears near the capital. Cities founded or conquered gain 40 science and culture, scaling with era and population.
New: Cities gain 20 gold and production when expanding borders, era scale. Gain a free settler. Gain 40 science and culture and founding or conquering cities, scaling based on era and population.

Commentary: We generally agree that Authority is meant to be a heavy wide, highly expansionist tree. By consultating its expansion bonuses earlier in the tree, we give Authority a rock solid start. This gets its initial cities and yields going, starting the war engine.

Tribute (new 2nd left policy)
Old: Cities gain 20 gold and production when expanding borders, era scale.
New: Killing a military unit generates science based on the strength of the unit. Gain 25% of tribute from city states as culture.

Commentary: Now the Authority player starts its heavy unit killing and CS tributing, getting its needed science and culture from the effort.

Dominance (1st right policy)
Old: Killing a military unit generates science based on the strength of the unit, and melee units heal for 15 after killing a military unit.
New: The barracks generates +1 happiness and +2 culture. Unit supply from population increases by 10%.

Commentary: We are keeping the flavor intact of using your military might to keep your people in check, its just that is now represented by the "barracks" military building rather than a unit. This lets Authority keeps its units out killing barbs and taking cities.

Militarism (2nd right policy)
Old: Each city with a garrison gives +1 happiness and +2 culture. -15% to Unit Maintenance, -50% to road maintenance.
New: Melee units heal for 15 after killing a military unit. -15% to Unit Maintenance, -50% to road maintenance.

Commentary: With our engine intact, we now start to focus on making the units stronger and better.

Honor (3rd right policy)
Old: +10% CS, free unit every 10 pop, -25% to war weariness.
New: Unchanged

Commentary: Honor finishes us off, rounding off our military power, adding a few extra units, and increases our longevity for war with WW reductions.


So this version would require minimal (if any) new code, but I think it focuses Authority better. Authority players can now get their engines going quicker. They still have to work hard to maintain the engine, but now they aren't so far behind other players which gives them a chance to stay relevant in the medieval wars to come.

for those who would like to see the new tree unfettered with the old, I put it down in the spoilers:

Spoiler :

Shown in optimal policy order

Opener: +25% combat bonus versus barbarians, reveal barbarian camps. +1 prod per city. Gain culture when killing units and clearing barbarian camps.
Imperium (1st left policy): Cities gain 20 gold and production when expanding borders, era scale. Gain a free settler. Gain 40 science and culture and founding or conquering cities, scaling based on era and population.
Tribute (2nd left policy): Killing a military unit generates science based on the strength of the unit. Gain 25% of tribute from city states as culture.
Dominance (1st right policy): The barracks generates +1 happiness and +2 culture. Unit supply from population increases by 10%.
Militarism (2nd right policy): Melee units heal for 15 after killing a military unit. -15% to Unit Maintenance, -50% to road maintenance.
Honor (3rd right policy): +10% CS, free unit every 10 pop, -25% to war weariness.
Finisher:
Border expand bonuses doubled. Can purchase mercenaries
Sounds very well rounded. Just one remark: as the free units are not needed as garrisons any more, their supply free status should carry over after upgrades. Otherwise either the units become useless as they are not upgraded, or the supply free status is lost relatively quickly.
 

alchx

Warlord
Joined
Nov 29, 2016
Messages
216
I would suggest giving a free unit when founding a city. And a free unit to the capital when opening a policy. A unit that kills an enemy brings culture and science to the city in which it was created or bought. These free units will serve as the engine for the growth of the borders of new cities (although without monuments, the borders grow very slowly), because. Authority receives money and production when the territory increases. And remove all free units when reaching 10 citizens.

There is a difficulty with what type of units to give. Definitely it shouldn't be a ranged unit, otherwise it would be like defensive walls and would be too much of a feature in the early game. And Authority, after all, relies on brute force.

There is a choice between a warrior and a pathfinder.

The Pathfinder is very good in defense while there are no spearmen, but in practice he is only able to kill an enemy archer, and even then it is situational. That is, he will hardly give culture to the city. But this will give the impression that the Authority is looking for new territories to explore and two pathfinders (the one who saw off the settler and the new one from the city) will be able to continue reconnaissance helping each other when there are more and more enemies around.

Warrior - I have a feeling that the Authority will become too strong in the early game, getting a strong melee unit that can be turned into a spearman very quickly. Even most likely, the Authority will receive a spearman, because technology can be unlocked at turn 20-23, and a new city of Authority is founded at about 45-50 (41-45 settler through politics and a few movement turns)..
 

CrazyG

Deity
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
6,057
Location
Beijing
Also I'm starting to feel like the problem is the mixed views on Authority's place in the game. It sounds like a lot of people think Authority should be "you have to be at war at all times to gain value", and anything that doesn't support that directly is leading the policy in the wrong direction.
I don't necessarily think that is what authority should be, but I think that's what it is. At peace, you can't keep up in science (you get none at all), and I don't think anyone has suggested anything that would change this.

Perhaps authority should have a source of science other than killing units, this will in particular help out the AI tremendously. Perhaps we should keep the science on kill, but lower it, to allow for another source to get in there (added to wall or barracks?) In theory we could get authority to be stronger than currently while at peace, without making it too strong while at war.
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
9,564
I don't necessarily think that is what authority should be, but I think that's what it is. At peace, you can't keep up in science (you get none at all), and I don't think anyone has suggested anything that would change this.

Perhaps authority should have a source of science other than killing units, this will in particular help out the AI tremendously. Perhaps we should keep the science on kill, but lower it, to allow for another source to get in there (added to wall or barracks?) In theory we could get authority to be stronger than currently while at peace, without making it too strong while at war.
Another option is to give them a long term benefit from conquest. Something like "conquered cities get +3 science/+3 culture" kind of thing. Or "finishing a war with a 25+ warscore gives you 2 great works of writing" (scald ballads kind of thing). This allows an Authority player to build an engine rather than the reliance on constant aggression to maintain yields
 

ma_kuh

Prince
Joined
Sep 13, 2022
Messages
340
I had some ideas after the first brainstorm that involved a heavier rework of the tree. They break down the tree into a "raiding" side and an "expansion" side: one works to bolster your offensive power and rewards you for taking aggressive actions, the other gives you the economic benefits and rewards you for claiming land.

The most important part to me is to reward border expansion and tile claiming more, and to keep the garrison reward. These are the two not-at-war triggers that will keep Authority flexible enough to be viable. Otherwise it's just "the warring" tree and it gets pretty bland.

I'll add my thoughts here in case they spark any ideas for an eventual proposal to put before the congress.

Spoiler Authority rework :

Opener:
+25% combat bonus VS barbarians. Announce and reveal barbarians when they spawn.
Gain :c5culture: Culture when you kill a unit, clear barbarian camps, or pillage tiles.
+1:c5production: in every city.

Scaler:
+1:c5production: in every city.

Finisher:
Unlocks building the Alhambra.
Yields from Dominance and Tribute policies doubled. (*These policies work a little differently)
Allows the purchasing of [mercenary units].
Allows for the purchase of :c5greatperson: Great Generals.

Dominance:
When you kill a unit, gain :c5science: science based on its CS.
When you clear a barbarian camp or pillage a tile, gain 10 :c5food: food in the :c5capital: Capital.
Supply generated by :c5citizen: Population increased by 10%.
Melee units heal for 15 after killing a military unit.

Militarism: (renamed Discipline) (requires Dominance)
Receive 40 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture in your :c5capital: Capital when you capture a city, based on era and City :c5citizen: Population.
Each City with a garrison generates +1 :c5happy: Happiness and +2 :c5culture: Culture.
Gold maintenance for units reduced by 15%, and for Routes by 50%.

War weariness and costs for unit and road maintenance reduced by 25%.
Supply generated by :c5citizen: Population increased by 10%.


Tribute:
Cities gain 10 20 :c5gold: gold, :c5science: science and :c5production: production when their borders expand naturally, and 10 :c5food: food and :c5science: science when a resource in their area is improved. These bonuses scale with era.
Gain :c5culture: Culture in :c5capital: Capital equal to 25% of Tribute demanded from City-States.
Monument gives +1 :c5happy: Happiness. (*Under the assumption that Authority lacks any happiness bonuses early in the game; remove if not needed)

Imperium: (requires Tribute)
A free Settler appears near the :c5capital: Capital.
Receive 40 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture when you found or conquer a city, scaling with era.
Each city in your empire immediately gains 30 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture.

Honor: (requires Dominance and Tribute Discipline)
Gain a supply free unit when a city reaches a multiple of 10 5 :c5citizen: Population.
Non-puppet Cities with a garrison provide +2 :c5culture: and reduce the Empire Size Modifier by 2% points. (*I wanted to try reducing the Unhappiness of Authority as its way of balancing happiness; it seems much more on theme to quell Unhappy rather than boost Happy)
War weariness reduced by 25%.
+10% :c5strength: CS.
 
Last edited:

CrazyG

Deity
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
6,057
Location
Beijing
Another option is to give them a long term benefit from conquest. Something like "conquered cities get +3 science/+3 culture" kind of thing. Or "finishing a war with a 25+ warscore gives you 2 great works of writing" (scald ballads kind of thing). This allows an Authority player to build an engine rather than the reliance on constant aggression to maintain yields
These seem more like unique traits for a civ than a social policy.

What I'd like to address most is the phenomenon where an AI takes authority, doesn't immediately fight a war (or does but doesn't conquer cities), and now that civ is just irrelevant. This happens really frequently on Deity, I'm often relieved to have authority neighbors because by the renaissance they have such bad science that they aren't a military threat.
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
9,564
What I'd like to address most is the phenomenon where an AI takes authority, doesn't immediately fight a war (or does but doesn't conquer cities), and now that civ is just irrelevant.
The fundamental problem is..... if I'm not warring, why shouldn't I take Progress? Progress right now is the peaceful wide tree, and its good at it. It has all the tools you need, good workers, solid per city yields, encourages road building. Its rock solid.

Authority's identity is war, if its not warring....well then Progress is just superior....and frankly should be as the peaceful wide tree, its literally doing its job. Its like saying Statecraft is bad because the statecraft player didn't go for CS allies.
So I don't think we can (or should) take Authority away from the requirements of warfare.

What we can do is shift the goalposts into more obtainable objectives. If conquering a city is "too hard", there is killing units. If killing units is too hard, maybe just damaging units. Maybe the acqusition of XP (which is done with simple attacking) rather than the requirement of actual killing of units. Aka break down warfare into the simple build blocks, and have authority gets benefits from those, rather than the "big" goals of CS tributes or city conquest.
 

CrazyG

Deity
Joined
Oct 14, 2016
Messages
6,057
Location
Beijing
The fundamental problem is..... if I'm not warring, why shouldn't I take Progress? Progress right now is the peaceful wide tree, and its good at it. It has all the tools you need, good workers, solid per city yields, encourages road building. Its rock solid.
The phenomenon where an AI takes authority, doesn't immediately fight a war, and falls behind.

Immediately was the key word (and this applies to players sometimes, if you don't immediately get barbarians authority starts are horrible). I think there's room for a military focused tree without linking every single aspect to killing. For example, what if science in kills was dropped to like 2/3rds of its current value, but you got +1 science to something (walls? I'm still brainstorming). You are still encouraged to fight wars, but its less all or nothing.

Spoiler Authority rework :

Opener:
+25% combat bonus VS barbarians. Announce and reveal barbarians when they spawn.
Gain :c5culture: Culture when you kill a unit, clear barbarian camps, or pillage tiles.
+1:c5production: in every city.

Scaler:
+1:c5production: in every city.

Finisher:
Unlocks building the Alhambra.
Yields from Dominance and Tribute policies doubled. (*These policies work a little differently)
Allows the purchasing of [mercenary units].
Allows for the purchase of :c5greatperson: Great Generals.

Dominance:
When you kill a unit, gain :c5science: science based on its CS.
When you clear a barbarian camp or pillage a tile, gain 10 :c5food: food in the :c5capital: Capital.
Supply generated by :c5citizen: Population increased by 10%.
Melee units heal for 15 after killing a military unit.

Militarism: (renamed Discipline) (requires Dominance)
Receive 40 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture in your :c5capital: Capital when you capture a city, based on era and City :c5citizen: Population.
Each City with a garrison generates +1 :c5happy: Happiness and +2 :c5culture: Culture.
Gold maintenance for units reduced by 15%, and for Routes by 50%.

War weariness and costs for unit and road maintenance reduced by 25%.
Supply generated by :c5citizen: Population increased by 10%.


Tribute:
Cities gain 10 20 :c5gold: gold, :c5science: science and :c5production: production when their borders expand naturally, and 10 :c5food: food and :c5science: science when a resource in their area is improved. These bonuses scale with era.
Gain :c5culture: Culture in :c5capital: Capital equal to 25% of Tribute demanded from City-States.
Monument gives +1 :c5happy: Happiness. (*Under the assumption that Authority lacks any happiness bonuses early in the game; remove if not needed)

Imperium: (requires Tribute)
A free Settler appears near the :c5capital: Capital.
Receive 40 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture when you found or conquer a city, scaling with era.
Each city in your empire immediately gains 30 :c5science: science and :c5culture: culture.

Honor: (requires Dominance and Tribute Discipline)
Gain a supply free unit when a city reaches a multiple of 10 5 :c5citizen: Population.
Non-puppet Cities with a garrison provide +2 :c5culture: and reduce the Empire Size Modifier by 2% points. (*I wanted to try reducing the Unhappiness of Authority as its way of balancing happiness; it seems much more on theme to quell Unhappy rather than boost Happy)
War weariness reduced by 25%.
+10% :c5strength: CS.
I personally really dislike yields on pillaging. It encourages a lot gimmicky strategies. I think you've added too much science.
 

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
Messages
9,564
We have talked about the idea of bonuses on improvement completions, which again is a way for Authority to project its "wide dominance" in a non-aggressive way, and a way that progress does not already do. Could also create some fun xmas tree strats with Progress (go Progress 2 for the worker improvement speed + Authority's bonus to completing improvements). similar to how Tradition 2 + Authority can work decently well together.

You could also add in a bonus for repairing improvements, which would both help rebuild conquered cities, and help compensate for the various pillagings you often take as the inevitable consequence of so many wars
 

rkkn

Warlord
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
188
And it takes away from Denmark's niche.
does it? I see it as adding to it instead. The civ that likes pillaging now gets even more rewards for it.

That said, I am against the culture on pillage. The food one is fine though, but should give the yields to the city the unit was produced in instead.
 

Rekk

Emperor
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Messages
1,998
does it? I see it as adding to it instead. The civ that likes pillaging now gets even more rewards for it.

That said, I am against the culture on pillage. The food one is fine though, but should give the yields to the city the unit was produced in instead.
The civ that is exmplified for being based around pillaging for yields would now be just another authority civ who likes pillaging for yields.
 

ma_kuh

Prince
Joined
Sep 13, 2022
Messages
340
This feels like a straw man argument. Arabia or Korea aren't in a "sea of Tradition civs that also like specialists". Just because a civ has a unique component that works on a trigger doesn't mean nothing else should use that trigger. Pillaging is a war-aligned action that fits on the spectrum from pressuring a neighbor, killing units, and capturing cities. It's a basic component of the system, not some unique trigger. Jaguars gaining faith on kill doesn't get in the way of adding culture and science on kill. It's silly to keep these useful triggers reserved like they're super unique, they aren't.
 

nekokon

Prince
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
434
Pillaging is an integrated part of war. In higher difficulty you simply can't stop AIs unit spam without pillaging and blockading.
A few other civs also have UU that give bonus to pillaging, and I don't see any complain about them making Denmark less recognizable. Those pillaging bonuses also retain after upgrade too.
 

pineappledan

Deity
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Messages
8,241
Location
Alberta, Canada
Arabia or Korea aren't in a "sea of Tradition civs that also like specialists".
Except yeah, they kind of are? Denmark is way more unique than Arabia or Korea; it’s no contest.

There’s only 1 UU and 1 wonder that do anything like Denmark.
Just because a civ has a unique component that works on a trigger doesn't mean nothing else should use that trigger.
I agree it’s not verboten, but adding more pillage stuff will dilute Denmark’s uniqueness. That’s just necessarily true. If you have 1 of a thing then it’s singular. If you have 2 of it then it’s less unique.
 

ma_kuh

Prince
Joined
Sep 13, 2022
Messages
340
But aren't they unique because they have combat bonuses on pillaged tiles, and water walking, and land-bound lighthouses? Not because they get more than just gold from pillaged tiles?
 

Zakuzelo

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
87
I seem to be the only person Who actually likes the garrison bonus. With the new Barbarian spawning, it seems more sensible to keep some garrisons in your back line. We used to have an entire crime needs mechanic that relied on garrisons to keep cities happy, and now it seems we're on a warpath against this mechanic in general. If this passes then the only garrison bonus in the entire game is maintenance free garrisons in Imperialism.
People want safe ways for units to contribute to the empire economy, and yet they also seem to find it completely unacceptable that they be required to simply sit somewhere. So what kind of rewards or incentives would be needed to stop people from getting their knives out for this mechanic?
I think the issue is that the bonus is just too limited. Barbarians are a threat to your workers, trade routes, and improvements, not your cities; units assigned to handle them and other stray enemies would be better situated on the edges of your territory and/or on important tiles, not garrisoned in the city itself. Even if you do keep them garrisoned in a city and have them hike over to trouble spots whenever enemies appear, you still lose that garrison bonus anyway until they get back. It's a conflict between what the mechanic rewards and what defenders actually do.
If these policies were made to be more flexible I think people might like them better. Have garrisons keep giving the bonus as long as they're in the city's borders, give them a grace period in which they can leave and come back without interrupting the bonus, something like that.
 

youngsteve

Prince
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
568
Location
England
I also think the garrison bonus makes little sense for Authority. Surely, defence is the last thing it needs for that tree. It would make more sense for anyone taking tradition to have bonuses for garrisoned troops in its cities.
 
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