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Autocracy Either Needs Buff or Remake

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by i kimchi u, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    I have said it many time in this thread. The true power CoP is that you jump in other people's war & get tourism boost against them. So your worst enemies England & France are fighting, great! DoW England & have instant tourism bonus with France.
     
  2. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Happiness hit? That'll happen with ANY ideology if your culture is weak. Autocracy has some of the best ways to REVERSE the happiness hit from a weak culture, and if you are the strong culture, you become the happiest, safest population on the planet. Futurism can help increase your influence bit by bit, Militarism has the double effect of giving you a very cheap way to get +6 happiness in every city and making your new army units stronger, fortified borders stacks with Neuschwanstein to make Castles incredible, and Prora is unmatched in pure happiness output, and gets better as the game goes on longer.

    Autocracy isn't ONLY good at conquest, although it is by far the best AT conquest, it's just that all its avenues for victory synergize well with having a huge army. Why do people keep saying that Autocracy is bad at culture victory when it has the only Tier 1 that even AFFECTS Tourism? Freedom has to wait till Tier 3 to affect Tourism at all, and Order only affects tourism on a narrow band -- yes, it's an easy band to hit because most AIs pick Order, but that one Freedom civ will dash your dreams of culture victory, as they are most likely be the happiest population and a high culture output, making them impervious to Order. Yes, Freedom and Order can increase tourism passively, but Autocracy has access to both the largest tourism boosting factor in the game, and the only factor which stacks with itself.

    If Futurism were any better, Autocracy would be the go-to for culture victory. Cult of Personality gets panned so much, but you don't have to start the wars and make a written agreement for a joint war to happen. The AI is always declaring war on each other, and you can get Cult of Personality to work just by declaring afterwards, and as long as you don't conquer any cities, you don't get a very large warmonger penalty. You can scare the AI into giving you all their things to stop your tanks, and if you didn't conquer, they might not even hold a grudge. If there's a stubborn culture that refuses to join you, declare war on that culture's enemies (he has plenty), and for each enemy you declare with, you get a stacking +50% increase to tourism to that civ.

    At one point, I was pumping out a whopping +1500 Tourism to certain other civs per turn through Cult of Personality. I wasn't the mighty conqueror, I was the benevolent Sword of Justice, keeping the REAL warmongers in check, while wowing everyone with my gorgeous resorts and museums filled with artifacts of our rich history of warfare. The city-states loved me because I had been saving them from barbarians and assisting in wars against other civs, liberating them when needed, and such was my might that the mere presence of my elite forces would sway their opinions. Such was my production that I doubled the second best at the World Games. I even rescued Mongolia from the evil clutches of their Austrian oppressors. I wasn't even attempting a Domination victory -- I had both culture AND diplomatic victory in the bag. I was the first to adopt Autocracy, and was the only surviving civ to do so. Yes, I had happiness problems in the beginning, but by the end, I had the happiest population on the planet.

    While it is true that the AI is usually hesitant to pick Autocracy because they'd rather win a science victory, there is one civ out there who picks Autocracy EVERY time, and he is very dangerous: Greece. Alexander almost always becomes a runaway if left to his own devices, and he only stops Dominating because he realizes he can win Diplomatically, and he WILL win diplomatically if he becomes a runaway. He never picks Order because he prefers the diplomatic victory, and he never picks freedom because war is his drug of choice.

    Autocracy is a very unique, and in my opinion, VERY fun style of play, where you use the might of your armies to leverage every other thing you do. Once you have the best army, Gunboat Diplomacy can turn allies in no time at all with just 3 of your battleships parked outside each of their borders, letting you save gold to spend on either more units, or on improvements, and Cult of Personality gives you a massive Tourism boost whenever you jump in on someone else's war, which also gives you major props with those AIs if you save them from a powerful enemy and don't conquer any cities yourself.
     
  3. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Don't forget that Musicians are only as strong as your CURRENT Tourism output on the turn they are born, they give 10 turns of that Tourism in a single hit, so if your tourism sucks, they won't do much better, but if your tourism is great, sending Musicians on tour is fantastic. The best time to pop Musicians is after winning the World Games, when your tourism can easily exceed 700 per turn, giving the musicians a power of 7000. If your tourism is only 10, though, they'll only give 100, so sending musicians to go on tour right after you pop Futurism is actually a BAD idea -- popping them still gives a large Futurism boost, but touring with them before you're a strong tourist destination is not a good strategy. Instead, use faith to pop writers and artists first, then once your museums are full, THEN pop those musicians to send on tour.

    Other than that, that's a sound strategy, and I applaud your creativity.
     
  4. Balerune

    Balerune Prince

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    I must be playing the wrong game. The AI in my games seldom if ever pick freedom, mostly pick autocracy or order. Only had 1 game out of @ dozen where a civ picked Freedom, India, and I had a lot of influence with them., played Venice. Perhaps I've just been drawing nasy AI's.:)
     
  5. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Autocracy DOES get something way better: Lightning Warfare. All Armor units (Tanks, Panzers, Modern Armors) forever after will have a Foreign Legion's worth of combat bonus no matter where they are, ignore ZOC, move faster than before, and as a bonus, your Generals even move faster. Those 6 free Foreign Legions you got can never be replaced and aren't that useful unless fighting outside your borders. Autocracy can build Armors at will, and Armor units are VASTLY superior to Infantry. Armors can hit-and-run against cities, surround and pound slower units, and thanks to Autocracy spamming Exp buildings for happiness, and having an exp tenet that also increases production, all their armors can start with a +33% combat bonus against Wounded units.

    Nothing Freedom has even comes close. Freedom's armies can never match an Autocrat's, because Freedom simply cannot have a Brandenburg Gate in every city. Volunteer Army's only lasting bonus is not having to pay upkeep on 6 units, but Autocracy can pay 33% less upkeep on ALL their units, so they can field a much larger army.
     
  6. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Lightning Warfare also boosts Landships and GDRs.

    (and of course the best Autocracy strategy... attack the Order leader and sieze the Kremlin)
     
  7. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Just don't do it in winter.
     
  8. Chiatroll

    Chiatroll Warlord

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    Freedom before level 3.
    Avant Garde boosts great people which is for great works which helps tourism.
    Civil Society and Universal Suffrage both make it easier to work those art specialists for GWAMs without penalty. The other part of universal suffrage only seems to help the tourism game for brazil
    New Deal helps my landmarks so I need it for culture.
    When I'm going for tourism I'm producing over over a thousand tourism a turn in the late game. Whats is a burst of 100 tourism in rare bursts vs over 300 every single turn?


    Also in my last 2 games against Greece he picked order. The AI is weird and random sometimes. I've seen a lot of the nicely violent AI's take autoc though like Shaka and Monty. The AI is kind of bad at combat tactics and half the time would rather have a dance party at the border may be why it never gets used well by them.

    I would agree it is the unquestionable best at domination though and even though I've never tested it for diplomacy all the reduced costs combined with gunboat make it look like a pretty strong contender for diplomacy on paper. I should try it out as Siam sometime.
     
  9. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

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    I cant say for sure how BNW implements but prior to G+K wounded reduced the CS of units by up to 50% and was a sliding scale, so your assertion is definitely not true prior to G+K. That said I am not sure how the mechanics work (exactly) since then so you may be right. Worth checking though if you are interested.

    The War Academy had a good combat paper prior to G+K, they may well have an updated one. IDK.
     
  10. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

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    I am guessing the design is that FREEDOM regimes are likely to be short of units in times of crisis or have their armies neglected due to other concerns, AUTOCRACY regimes will not be.

    EDIT : Sorry I quoted the wrong poster I meant to quote aHawk.
     
  11. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    Bombers render infantry much more than useless. I rarely fight with my tanks, they are for capturing cities (but usually it's just better to use Cavalry anyway since they cost horses, not oil).

    Lightning Warfare would also be the third or fourth tier 2 tenet to take, as after you get rolling the only thing you really need is happiness.
     
  12. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Bursts of 100 tourism mostly help at the opening of ideologies, before archaeologists and such start appearing everywhere. That 25% to great people is nice but is a drop in the bucket for artists, since you can get many bonuses to those through other means, such as arts funding and the aesthetics opener.

    Again, Autocracy can get loads of culture too, just pumps it out through more active means. Nobody does the peace game tall empire as well as Freedom, otherwise why take freedom? Likewise, nobody makes war like an autocrat, and the autocrat can conquer your nice big city to win the culture game, and can park his units outside your CS allies to flip them to win diplomatically. You can take back a conquered city, but that just ruined its population and buildings, now you have to start all over. Nukes /demolish/ freedom, worse than the others, because freedom is counting on is nice big cities getting bigger, and finest hour can't stop nukes. This happened to my brother, who did freedom tall with all the wonders. An autocrat came knocking, nuked his whole empire, and he rage quit flipped tables (his words).

    Autocracy is a totally different play style that focuses not on city building, but on army building. Futurism is not meant to change the game, it is a quick boost at the opening of the industrial era before tourism takes off for real, which is also when you can start faith buying GWAMs with Aesthetics, which I imagine is what it's meant to be used with. Situational, sure, but not bad unless you hit the modern age before picking an ideology. Freedom has a lot of crap tier 1s too, so stop picking on Futurism. It's still a direct bonus to tourism that probably equals Freedom's great people boost in the long run. Each GWAM pop is effectively like having 50 turns of that great work. Still, Autocracy's main culture game comes from Cult of Personality, which modifies your final tourism by 50%, unlike the world games win, which only modifies pre-internet tourism. CoP modifies the final number even after internet and world games win, so it gets pretty insane.

    It should be noted that freedom's big tourism booster tier 3 is much weaker than it sounds, since it's only 33% to the pre-airport/hotel numbers, so whoopee, you get +133% to tourism output instead of +100%. Autocracy and order both get boosters to the final number, and autocracy gets the single biggest. CoP requires a war, but when you see it in action...
     
  13. Magean

    Magean Prince

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    But, is the Futurism tourism boost affected by open borders agreements, trade routes, and cult of personality ?
     
  14. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Conquering cities gives you a nice fat warmonger penalty, and if you are warring just to activate cult of personality, tanks are the ultimate unit killers and land pillagers. Bombers have highly random damage, can't attack things it can't see, and are terrible against AA units. I'd rather use rocket arty and tanks than this ridiculously lame bomber spam with medic everyone talks about. Hell, cities are so strong late game that range+ battleships are just as effective if not more so than a siege 3 bomber. At least they don't end their turn with 1hp half the time, if not die outright.
     
  15. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  16. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Now I understand why Nazis back stabbed Soviets in WWII... To get Kremlin. :p

    Agreed. Planes have hard counters, tanks aren't terribly weak to anything. Yes anti-tanks & gunships can do considerable damage but tanks don't just die. On the other hand planes die when AA guns sneeze on them ! IMHO planes are supposed to be support units in most cases, while tanks form the main line.
     
  17. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    Check this link. It is about vanilla when we used to have 10HP units & wounded units could have up to 50% penalty (which is now 33% max with G&K onwards).

    From the guide:-

     
  18. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    Well, fighters should be for support, unless they're promoted to being good at attacking land units. The air sweep and interception icons are there to be used. :)

    Bombers should always be preceded by fighters. That oughta be a given. The AAG shouldn't get a shot off, because an air sweep automatically negates their intercept, and you should always air sweep if in doubt. And bombers should generally be built in cities with barracks, etc, so that they can start with their very strong promos. None of this rough/open terrain nonsense, just give a bonus against cities or land units. Nice.
     
  19. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    He just forgot about Patriotic War.

    This is how things have played out in my games. Bombers are very effective, yes, but they have a lot of easy hard counters, as AA guns seem to be strong against everything, but the tank's hard counters are weak to everything that isn't a tank.
     
  20. Vidszhite

    Vidszhite Ya Girl Juniper & Friends

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    Air Sweeps aren't a 100% chance to distract an AA gun. Against fighters, it works, but I've seen AA guns completely ignore multiple air sweeps while they decimate my bombers. If they have SAMs, this means instant death.

    Naturally, as an Autocrat, I have Barracks in every city, so my Bombers all start with Air Repair Siege II, otherwise Air Repair Bombardment II. Unfortunately, against a capital, or a city with a military base, bombers still take massive damage even if you have Siege III, so they're no substitute for artillery. Once you get Stealth Bombers, it's a different story, but those are very late game units.
     

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