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Autocracy Either Needs Buff or Remake

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by i kimchi u, Jul 22, 2013.

  1. Matthew.

    Matthew. Deity

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    The 50 turn duration has never bothered me since by the time you get it (both in G&K and BNW) there should only be about 50 turns left in the game unless something seriously goes wrong.

    Although it begs the question "why" it must be limited to 50 turns. "It is too OP to last longer" would be a poor argument since like I said: game usually ends within those 50 turns anyway.

    Just seems artificial and silly.
     
  2. ahawk

    ahawk King

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    My main gripe is that Foreign Legions are awarded to Freedom while Autocracy (the ideology that's supposed to be about warfare) gets no special military units.

    This is a gripe I've had since before BNW came out. Seriously, giving Freedom 6 units for a Tier 2 tenet is silly when Autocracy has no tenet that awards units. Freedom's 6 free Foreign Legions are weaker than standard GWI, yes, but upgrade them into standard Infantry and they are quite useful. Moreover, just getting 6 units of *any* contemporary tech level is a huge boost in itself.

    Honestly, I just don't get it, not only from a functional standpoint but also for flavor: give Autocracy something comparable, or even switch Foreign Legion to it.
     
  3. Arachnofiend

    Arachnofiend Perturbed Pugilist

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    Yeah, giving Freedom Volunteer Army and Arsenal of Democracy was just a poor design decision all around. What's worse is that with the Foreign Lands bonus the FL's are actually stronger than regular GWI... If you're using them for conquest.

    Freedom as it stands is simply the best at every victory condition, which is probably the biggest balance issue with the ideology balance.
     
  4. Dai

    Dai Warlord

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    I think there's still something of a mindset of domination victories meaning you just totally blow off culture and cultural victories meaning that fighting is useless or actively counterproductive, when the new culture mechanics make both of those things much less true than they'd be otherwise. When you're going for a cultural victory, it's often much, much easier to stomp out (or hope someone else stomps out) the other guy(s) going for cultural victories. If you don't, it can be really difficult to get the required level of cultural dominance over them in time, assuming that you don't already have the whole game in the bag. CoP, at least theoretically, helps you get to the required level with other civs while you're crushing the guy you'll have a very hard time catching. Similarly, if you're going for a domination victory, CoP lets you perhaps get away with having a bit less tourism while trying to avoid getting crushed by other people's cultural pressure.

    That's not to say that CoP is good or anything, just that I think that hybrid conquest and cultural concerns overlap more in BNW than they did before. Both times I've actually tried it, my big issue with CoP is that even when you're trying to maximize it, it's like a wild firehose; it's super difficult to aim the bonus where you want it; even when it's "on" in some sense, generating a bunch of extra tourism towards someone you're already culturally crushing is of questionable value. It's a big bonus, but it feels very noodly and hard to manage compared to comparable bonuses in the other trees. (Media culture turns on a little later, but is just on when it's on; Cultural Revolution sometimes does nothing, but when it works, it just works; Dictatorship of the Proletariat is more active and requires more specific investment, but is more directly manageable.)
     
  5. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    Well, I don't think Foreign Legions should be switched to Autocracy. France is a pretty strong democracy, so they'd be a bit insulted that their troops are associated with Fascism and Nazism.

    That being said, I do think each ideology should have special units. My idea was this:

    Freedom: Foreign Legion - Same as now

    Order: Partisan.
    Comparable to an Infantry (i.e., comes with Plastics). Every time you lose a city, four will appear. Ignores terrain costs and has 2 line of sight.

    Autocracy: Stormtrooper
    I kind of wanted those cool motorcycle cars of the SS, but it's probably a good idea to avoid the SS at all costs.
    Stormtrooper is comparable to Great War Infantry. Combat bonus when attacking and can use enemy roads and railroads as if they are its own.
     
  6. wigwam

    wigwam Prince

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    France wasn't the only country with a prominent Foreign Legion, though. The Spanish Legion (modeled on the French one) was one of the most prominent Nationalist (fascist) units during the Civil War.
     
  7. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    But France has the most famous Foreign Legion and still has it today. To the extent that it should be anything other than a French UU, it's better placed where it is. There's no need to move it when they can just unique units to each ideology (just like each has its own wonder).
     
  8. wigwam

    wigwam Prince

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    True enough. I always liked the Foreign Legion as a French UU, and I'd have been sad to see it go—I imagine the devs felt the same way, and that's how it ended up as a tenet—but I have to say, I don't think they've worked well as a free unit disconnected from any tech. It's possible to get them really early, like before your enemies even have Riflemen (on Immortal difficulty!).

    Not sure adding more such units to the other ideologies is a great idea. Maybe they can attach them to a tech as well?
     
  9. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    Thats good to use against the AI but a human player will see it through and will most likely counter it.

    Depends on how far in the tech tree you are before it kicks in, but to my experience when tanks, battleships and rocket artillery are cruising around then its pretty powerful. Then again if you choose Autocracy you sacrificed other forms of victory to set a narrow path of conquest...Dunno really, all I can say is that sometimes I had used it and when it ended I had as many as three capitals to conquer, even so, the damage you will inflict on those 50 turns pretty much guarantees that the situation becomes irreversible.

    Well given the fact that most of the time those two formations operated, were deployed in order to secure the colonial interests (and whatever that includes) of their parent country on foreign soil, we can hardly call them democratic. Democracy or Freedom believing is not a nation that governs itself with said ideology only. Its a nation that promotes and supports freedom (notice the word supports as opposed to enforce), and in that context no government has ever been a rigid follower.
     
  10. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Very true, and when a civ is down to 1 city and no military, the war will be over extremely fast, and then away goes your Tourism bonus ...
    This has been something I have been wanting for Autocracy for a LONG time. The ability that bosts Armor units by letting them ignore ZOC is also a step in the right direction, but this is definitely something that should be in. My suggestion would be that in order to balance it, you need a military unit in the tile, or at least adjacent to it - so that you can use enemy infrastructure if you have a military unit stationed in the tile/adjacent to the tile, depending on what would be balanced. I could really see that being useful for Autocracy civs!
     
  11. A Rabid Dopsis

    A Rabid Dopsis Warlord

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    But it shouldn't be that way. Autocracy should be about domination, culture and diplomacy like the game pretends it is.
     
  12. Maniac

    Maniac Apolyton Sage

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    Just posting here to get a dot on the thread icon.
     
  13. Gabriel Pyyrhic

    Gabriel Pyyrhic Warlord

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    To be fair probably the most prominent Autocratic regime in modern times greatly prioritised culture, ie Nazi Germany. It was just theyre idea of culture, ie propaganda. They commissioned numerous films, artworks (not to mention stole and hoarded them), etc and fostered a strong homogenous culture. Without such a national culture being carefully implemented prior to the war, it would not have been possible for Hitler to influence his people to the degree he did.

    It is also worth noting that they hosted the Olympics (Berlin, prior to WW2).

    In other words Autocratic regimes should be strong with regard to Warfare sure, but Culture (via propaganda) should also be a big part. Hearts and Minds as the saying goes.

    FYI Albert Speer was a high ranking Nazi (although he recanted this after the war) who was essentially Hitler's architect for large, cultural projects (Wonders).

    BTW Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_architecture . It is not comprehensive but gives you an idea.

    So you may want to rethink your opinion of what AUTOCRATIC regimes tend to prioritise.
     
  14. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I do think they should be attached to a tech as well. I don't see the harm in that.

    Given that democratic countries, in practice, disprove your point, I don't think it's fair to hold the game to a higher standard than the actual countries. There's a bit of a "No True Scotsman" fallacy going on to say that Democratic countries weren't democratic countries because they failed to completely live up to their ideals. The ones in the game are allowed to fail to live up to ideals too.
     
  15. pilot00

    pilot00 King

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    I had a very good laugh at that, thank you sir.
     
  16. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    I've now won 5 deity games in BNW, 3 with Autocracy and 2 with Order. Autocracy is absolutely amazing in my opinion if you start small and tall before going wide (I started my expansion at Frigates each time. 2 of my 3 victories were Diplomatic because I had all city states, but they could have been pretty much anything.

    Mobilization: amazing in combination with Commerce/Big Ben if you went tall early on. This should allow you to rush buy a fleet immediately after reaching the required tech, whether it's Battleships, Bombers or something else. If you beeline Great War Bombers and can buy them for 390 each, having 20 the turn after you invent them is pretty much insane.

    Industrial Espionage: Especially good if you are even a little behind, which is usually the case on Deity. It allows you to beeline very deep and steal side-techs quickly so you catch up very fast.

    Fortified Borders: This one is usually my third. It provides a lot of needed local happiness in the taller cities and replaces your need for religion.

    Elite forces is mediocre but quite good for a bomber game. Not my favourite.

    Futurism is an odd chicken, it will probably give you around 1000 culture throughout the game, which is sort of ok I guess. The biggest drive for me is this: It allows you to quite easily get the lower tiers of tourism, which prevents a lot of unhappiness. This can be quite viable if many others are going for other Ideologies

    United Front: This is weak, you don't want to rely on city states to do that.

    Universal Healthcare: Another rather weak one that doesn't seem impressive.

    Tier 2:

    Militarism: This is so good when conquering tall cities. With the Commerce/Big Ben build, you'll pay 240 gold for a barracks (or build it in 1 turn if you annex), giving you access to many fast building happiness buildings (barracks, colosseum, castle).

    Third Alternative: This is where the cake is at. Nothing says conquest as much as oil patches, and this turns oil patches into bubbling patches of black sweetness. That bomber fleet of 390 a piece is going to grow and grow until you just are hotkeying it to make it somewhat manageable.

    Total War: +25 % production is ok but not special. What IS amazing is the 15 xp. If you miss Brandenburg, this allows you to start units at +3 levels, which means they start with Air Repair or Bombard 3, or extra range or Medic II. This is absolutely incredible.

    Lightning Warfare: I'm not a fan of this cause I dislike armor units. It's not bad, but the alternatives are better.

    Nationalism: I'm not a fan of this one either since unit maintenance is usually an almost insignificant part of your expenses.

    Police State: Another part of the: I want to annex huge tall enemy cities plan. This can keep you happy through immense ideological pressure.

    Tier 3:

    Cult of personality: The idea behind this is you killing off the big culture civs with the help of others. Eliminate the problem cultures, and influence the weak ones. Getting them to fight shouldn't be too hard.

    Gunboat Diplomacy: The key here is becoming so powerful that you only need just a few units near a city state to gain influence. If you are at 100 for general strength, then two or three so units should suffice to gain 6 inf per turn, completely invalidating anything Patronage does. It also means you can use your gold for more units.

    Clausewitz's Legacy: In the late game, what else would you like ? You either need gold, which you should have enough of, happiness, which is covered in the lower tiers, or military power.



    So, after going over all of them, I don't really see how the tree is weak. In fact, I think it's the most powerful of the three if you went tall->conquest, and possibly the best for any victory type save science.
     
  17. funkymunky

    funkymunky Warlord

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    After playing Aztecs with Autocracy, I do agree with most that some of the tenets should be changed to make warfare a way to address some of the types of deficiencies that a militaristic state would probably have; those being a lack of culture/tourism & perhaps some buffs to the diplomatic aspect that is supposed to be a strength of the ideology (according to the devs).

    I was thinking that some of those weak tenets that people are saying are not so good (like healthcare, fort borders, futurism, espionage) ought to be changed in such ways that make warfare help improve tourism and diplomacy. Perhaps an idea would be a tenet change that would give an additional WC vote for every capital that your civ has captured. Or perhaps give some bonus tourism for each military unit you kill (I'm sure Joseph Goebbels would have a movie or two to make about your victorious battle ;) ). United Front should maybe make all city state allies grant you units instead of just militaristic ones (because as an autocracy, I tend to have few CS allies because I tend to conquer them instead), although perhaps the military ones could do so more often. And I think the universal healthcare tenet would probably work better if it helped you heal your units faster instead of more happiness.

    Maybe these aren't ideas for level 1 tenets, so perhaps there would need to be some rearrangement, but Autocracy does seem lacking a bit in helping a military style victory, which is what it professes to do.
     
  18. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Some good ideas here. Particularly the Universal Healthcare and units from all City States would be really useful and would fit the game well. I don't agree with your conclusion about military victory though - Autocracy is amazing for Domination, because what you need more than anything is Happiness, and that's what you get in buckets. I think the problem is mostly with Diplomacy.
     
  19. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    If you think Industrial Espionage is weak, then you should up your difficulty level.

    Seriously, in my last Immortal game, Washington was a runaway with 4 huge core cities and a few smaller ones. I parked 4 spies in those big cities and all of them needed only 15-20 turns to get a tech although he had police stations. That's one tech every 4-5th turn. It was insane.

    Who needs research labs? haha
     
  20. Highway_King

    Highway_King Chieftain

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    I don't know man, I'm digging Autocracy. As Denmark, I was the first ideology founder and picked it. Since my tourism was so high, half of the remaining civs adopted it and I threw the ones who picked order and freedom were having revolutionary waves. Gunboat diplomacy and futurism were super powerful. I ended winning a culture victory and would have won diplomatically at the next UN meeting. Had a blast doing it too.
     

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