Avatar Spawned at 88

[Raizic]

This sucks lol. I would have been more prepared except the counter handn't moved in so long and I had killed the 4 guys then all of a sudden he spawns in a city right by me. The Ashen Veil isn't even on my continent ;/

 

[Raizic]

Is he supposed to be going form 5.5 health right back up to 27 the next turn?

 

[Raizic]

I take it you have to kill him in a single turn? I finally got him down.

What happens if you're a race that has barbarian are they still allied to you?

 

[xienwolf]

Most likely he got a couple of promotions off of your units that he slaughtered. Accepting a promtion means lots of health returned, and can be quite frustrating for someone who BARELY fails to kill him with all the units they had available in the area.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

The Veil has nothing to do with where armageddon units are spawned. It should be random, even if they seem to spawn near myself more often then they should.
If you are barbarian and still at peace with them, then the Avatar won't attack you. He can still steal some of you units thought.

Oh, i was wondering, if i cast "Loyalty" on my units, they will die rather then switch sides right? This applies to the Avatar too?
If some are immortal, they will be reborn in my capital, even if they "commit suicide" in order not to switch?
If all this is true, then Blood of the Phoenix and Loyalty is the ultimate anti-avatar combo.

 

[xienwolf]

Nope, neither loyalty nor Immortality saves you (not even Hero).

Units with Loyalty just mean you can't attempt to get them back from the Avatar.

Units with Immortality means you just have to kill them twice after they are swiped.


Something I just thought of that I would LOVE to try someday. Get a city 1 turn from completion of "Nature's Revolt" and then keep the production line filled to prevent it from finishing until the Avatar spawns

 

[Nor'easter]

I take it you have to kill him in a single turn? I finally got him down.

What happens if you're a race that has barbarian are they still allied to you?

If you don't kill him in a single turn he just gains xp and promotions and becomes tougher to kill.

As for having the barbarian trait, I just played a game as Clan of Embers and was at peace with the barbs until the Avatar arrived. Then I got a message box pop up in the upper right-hand corner with the Avatar telling me "You've become too civilized, now it's war!" (I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like that). So from then on I was at war with the barbs, including the Avatar. Luckily the Avatar spawned on a different continent, so the other civs mostly kept him busy.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

When the Avatar spawns and takes much of the worlds armies with him he drastically lowers the scores of most civs (especially those nearby). That means that it becomes much harder to remain weak enough to be safe from is Wrath. (peace is supposed to last until you have 150% the score of the next best player, or until you declare war)

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Nope, neither loyalty nor Immortality saves you (not even Hero).

Units with Loyalty just mean you can't attempt to get them back from the Avatar.

NO i thought loyalty would at least kill your units rather then have them switch sides. So Avatar shouldn't be able to "bribe" them. At least it's good from a role-playing perspective, i can understand it's not from a mechanism perspective.

Is there a way to prevent the avatar from taking over heroes. It's bad enough to loose many units. It's pretty random too, and a civ loosing his hero will be much weakened then another loosing only units. I think it would be better if they didn't. They are heroes after all ...

 

[xienwolf]

Kael says he will shift it so you cannot lose the heroes. And my advice is to find as many non-living units as you can per city just to have SOME defence for the big day.

And it isn't really "Bribing them." His entering the world is a sign that hell has merged with Erebus, and that demons have broken free into the world, and into our minds. People are possessed, go insane, or otherwise lose their mental faculties and become more animal than man (mentally), hence becoming Barbarians.

It would be mildly nice if loyalty would make it a touch less likely though, to make it worth your time to have buffed everyone up. But such a thing shouldn't be in for balance reasons: AI isn't smart enough to do it. And if the AI and player all did it, Avatar would be far too weak.

 

[zxcvbnm]

And it isn't really "Bribing them." His entering the world is a sign that hell has merged with Erebus, and that demons have broken free into the world, and into our minds. People are possessed, go insane, or otherwise lose their mental faculties and become more animal than man (mentally), hence becoming Barbarians.

Actually that's wrong.
The Avatar of Wrath is spawned when the wrath of the dead upon the living has achieved a point where it takes a physical form, and many will hear its call and join its cause. People aren't possessed by demons but by their own hate and wrath upon those who have brought Erebus to the verge of destruction, and they join what they see as the thing[?] one[?] who can fill their wishes and exact revenge upon those who deserve it by having survived the blight, the Riders of Apocalypse and the wars of the end. The people who become the Avatar's forces are completely sane and human, they just have joined a common yet twisted cause.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, I'd argue that anyone who has made it through the blight and the Horsemen will have questionable sanity. (if you are alive, and you join a mindless horde of the dead AGAINST the living, but do not start by killing yourself... Your reasoning capabilities are obviously shot).

And being possessed of your own hatred and anger is just a different, less mythical translation of being possessed by a demon (All in my opinion of course).

But either way: Loyalty ought to have a small shred of a chance to help your cause realistically. But game mechanic wise it doesn't work so well.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Actually, the units that join the Avatar are not living units anymore. The type of nit doesn't change and they don't gain the undead promotion, but a mouseover will reveal that they are non alive.

I guess that loyalty actually does what it is supposed to (kills the units) but just because the unit dies doesn't mean that it won't turn on you. Still, I wish it could be used to prevent then from joining the Avatar.

 

[xienwolf]

Ooh, never noticed that one before. I was actually hoping to pull off a nice werewolf feast once Hero's became immune to Avatar snatching Back to the drawing boards (I still REALLY want to try timing the completion of Nature's Revolt just right)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The ritual wouldn't affect most of wrath's units,just the kinds that the barbarians would normally have. I tried timing Nature's Revolt for just after the avatar arrived in my last game, but the horsemen wiped another evil (Illians) civ just before I finished it. (I, Sheelba of the Clan of Embers, and Hyborem were still at peace with the barbs. All the other civs in this game had alse been evil civs, and were destroyed by the horsemen.) It didn't have any effect of the numerous Wraiths that Ars had spawned, nor the countless Chaos Marauders that I had summoned near my rivals boarders to wipe them out without declaring war.

From the Python code it seems clear that the ritual only effects unitclasses Axeman, Hunter, Scout, Warrior, and Worker. If the Barbarian state had more advanced units (whether from teching, starting in the renaissance age, enraged units, or the Avatar) they would not be changed.

 

[Raizic]

So they declare war on Hypoborem too? That seems kind of odd. Although I guess it makes sense. I imagine Hypo gets ridiculously powerful around that time too since all the barbs killed create manes?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Hyborem was still around and at peace with the barbs. (Although his barbarian trait works just like the Clan leaders' so they would declare war on him if he here strong enough.) I had gifted him a few cities just to keep our scores close enough to maintain peace with the barbs. Just before my score got too high to keep the peace, I decided to go for the challenge of Switching to the Mercurians. I built the gate in one of my better cities, so taking it as the Mercurians dropped my score low enough for our team (Angels included) to keep the peace. With the horsemen still on my side, I prepared my forces to raze all of Infernal cities (but tried to time it so that I left them all defenseless first, so I could conquer them all in one turn, thus not giving the barbs time to turn on me before my conquest victory. Hyborem had only owned a lot of them for a couple turns, so many of them weren't defended yet anyway.) I could have won without ever fighting the barbs (having already defeated the Hyborem unit twice, and wiped out most of his demons. Note that I may have used world builder to give me a slight advantage, like all levels of the altar of the luonnatar in my only city ) but I somehow forgot to guard my only city. I was defeated by a single level 1 Savant.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Well, I'd argue that anyone who has made it through the blight and the Horsemen will have questionable sanity. (if you are alive, and you join a mindless horde of the dead AGAINST the living, but do not start by killing yourself... Your reasoning capabilities are obviously shot).

And being possessed of your own hatred and anger is just a different, less mythical translation of being possessed by a demon (All in my opinion of course).

But either way: Loyalty ought to have a small shred of a chance to help your cause realistically. But game mechanic wise it doesn't work so well.

Anyone who's made it through those times is really more or less insane because of the horrors. However the followers of the Avatar are not a mindless horde of the dead but rather a horde of people so angry for the leaders who have brought the end upon them so they join the only cause which they see as showing the finger to them.

In real life being possessed by wrath has been considered being possessed by demons but in Erebus where demons are real it's a different thing. If they were possessed by real demons and not wrath why they wouldn't join Hyborem instead?

And because you join the Avatar's horde not because you are so much insaner than the others but because you are pi§§ed up with your boss, being loyal should, as you said, lower that chance.

 

[MrUnderhill]

{Edit:} Never mind, I changed my mind on this.

Spoiler :

If the reason people join Wrath's army is to exact revenge on the people causing Armageddon, then perhaps instead of being a barb, Wrath should have his own sub-civ, like a mix between the Infernals/Mercurians and the barbs.

Upon entry, Wrath would declare war on every civ that contributed to the AC (Ashen Veil or not), as well as the civ that is currently doing the least to stop the AC (so that they'll always be at war with someone, but working to stop the AC can buy you some time while they wipe the floor with everyone else).

Units killed by Wrath's troops would always have a chance to join their ranks instead, so Wrath's army could still get pretty huge even without the aid of the normal barbarians. It just seems wrong that Wrath could possibly attack you even though you're trying to bring the AC back down. But maybe that's the essence of wrath; that it blinds you and keeps you from telling friend from foe. I dunno.

 

[zxcvbnm]

But maybe that's the essence of wrath; that it blinds you and keeps you from telling friend from foe. I dunno.

True, they are just mad at the living and don't care whom they kill as long as they kill them