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Balancing issues

Indeed. Coastal cities are not imbalanced, they're actually worth building for once.

I find that perfect coastal cities are about as common as any other "power start". Should floodplains, food resources and gems/gold be nerfed too?
 
I disagree on traderoutes being too powerful. They are certainly powerful, but not enough of a reason to go out of your way to create coastal cities. I'd love to play a testgame challenge, where you can focus on exploiting coastal cities (i.e. chase traderoute enhancing techs and the great lighthouse/lighthouses) or you can focus on inland cities (aristofarm/cottages). A comparison of different playstyles would be very interesting.
 
I think some of the incongruence here might be due to different playstyles. I tend to go for a turtle-up builder economic strategy, which is why I almost always end up prioritizing coastal cities, great lighthouse, and foreign trade. With this build, it's quite commonplace to have over 200 research around turn 130-150 or so presuming a coastal spot with decent production for the GLH and access to decent amounts of foreign cities. The latter condition may not always happen, though, and conquering interfering neighbors or barbarian cities blocking coastal trade access is not easy with the slightly gimped production, which makes the strategy a bit risky and more than a little builder-oriented. A trade route strategy leaves no cottages to pillage, though, and allows citizens to concentrate on food/production/great people instead of commerce.
 
Would anyone be interested in me making an unbiased test game to see what the differences are? Judging from the way that some of the people here are speaking, we are definitely playing in a vastly different manner, which may lead to us not understanding just how powerful the ocean city is, or those who feel it is powerful not having the same kind of comparison for how a well played other economy can be run. Please note that I am not doing this because I feel other players are incompetent - I've run the numbers, but I haven't ever played with a focus on trade, and I'm remarkably poor at the aristocracy economy, so it would be interesting to see how other people play the game and what I'm missing.

-Colin
 

Thank you colin. I disagree with OP. I see nothing wrong with coastal cities. And great lighthouse is fine as is. First, you need to build a lighthouse, second, you need to get sailing, and focus on ship techs, which in FFH is a path less traveled for a reason.

I am always surprised by what people call Overpowered.
 
While readercolin surely is correct about the maximum number of trade routes, I think one thing is forgotten in this discussion: many of the trade routes unique to coastal cities are very easy to get early, and thus you get much more use of these traderoutes.

Another thing I would like to object to is the idea that coastal cities are bad since the tiles they use are less useful. First, every sea and coasal tile can be used. This is not true for every inland tile: deserts and mountains. Besides, many inland tiles have reduced gain: tundra, march, jungle. This reduced gain can be offset later, by using terraforming magic or technology, but still, this takes time.

Still another is the number of tiles actually used by the cities. Often I tend to use 10-15 of the tiles availible. This means that not every tile need to be good. So, if you have a coastal city, haveing 5 tiles water, and one of these with resources, that is only two or three "useless" tiles, since there are fishing villages.

To conclude, I think that the benefits of the extra traderoutes, as well as the much easier job of connecting these to cities (you only need to discover cities on the coast, no need to build roads to them), by far overshadows the loss of "useful" tiles and the production and research needed to get them, in the long run.
 
While readercolin surely is correct about the maximum number of trade routes, I think one thing is forgotten in this discussion: many of the trade routes unique to coastal cities are very easy to get early, and thus you get much more use of these traderoutes.

Who goes for sailing early?
 
The only thing that could be tuned down is lighthouse giving +1 instead of +2 traderoutes.
Rest is fine as it is - makes trading viable :).

How are the values of the trade routes are ROUNED?

The mouseove in city screen states a 1.98 :commerce: trade route as 1:commerce:.
Is that true?

Traderoutes are also threaten by blockade-ships (AI issues ... ofc) and related to allies/enemies and you need to do some diplomacy.
 
Early game trade routes consist of 1 free one, 2 from lighthouse, and 2 from great lighthouse. I don't know about you, but the possibility of 2 more trade routes before I even get open borders usually doesn't appeal to me as it would tie up my capital for 20+ turns, which I could have instead used to build warriors/settlers/workers, which to me means that the great lighthouse isn't an early game wonder except in the time in which it appears.

So that means that you'll have 3 trade routes, and +50% from harbor, +25% for connection to capital, vs 1 +25%. Woo hoo, you managed to snag 4 more commerce from your city than an inland one would have, for the price of 2 buildings, and food resources/fishing villages for 30 hammers a piece. If you have 1 resource, 2 fishing villages, and 90 hammers for the harbor +120 hammers for the lighthouse, thats 300 hammers spent on getting this city what it needs. 1 worker costs 90 hammers - so you could get 3 workers and a warrior for the price of setting up this one coastal city, or 5 axmen. Now, will your coastal city produce more commerce? I sure hope so after that investment. Will it produce more hammers than an interior city in the early game - probably not, as it is working three water tiles, only two of which produce a hammer, and it would only be able to work 2-4 inland squares in addition depending upon how many happy resources you have managed to find, as opposed to another city working 5-7 inland tiles, which in the early game we can once again assume that at least 2-3 of them are resource tiles (otherwise, we need to have a talk about your city placement scheme).

Lets look at this in another way - what if you are going for a conquest style game instead of a builder style one. You just spent 300 hammers on setting up the beginnings of your trade network. I just spent those 300 hammers on warriors - I have 12 more warriors than you would assuming equal numbers of hammers. Or if I spent them on axmen, I have 5 more axmen. Great lighthouse costs 300 or 600 hammers? Once again, 12-24 more warriors or 5-10 more axmen. So for the cost of your building costs you wiping out your nearest neighbor and doubling the number of cities that you have (potentially). This larger industrial base then moves into gear, makes more workers/economic buildings, and proceeds to trudge after you technologically. Your builder style might have an early lead, but double the number of cities, with the right civics/tech path will catch up rather quickly.

If that is the comparison, were those early game trade routes really worth it comparatively?

Now, all that was just addressing your first and third points TowerWizard. Your second point however depends entirely upon city placement. In the early game, most starts will run into a happy cap of around 8:) or so. A higher happy cap will generally then depend more upon expansion or the construction of buildings, leaving further expansion to the midgame. Secondly, the concept of reduced gain that you brought up. Every single inland terrain can be improved, with the sole exception of mountains. A coastal tile can only be improved in one of three ways: kelp (not under your control), resources (again, not under your control), or fishing villages. This means that a city can get 1-4 tiles that produce +1 hammer, +3 commerce, and everything else is solely up to the whims of city placement. An interior tile (say, tundra), can be improved with a farm, a cottage, a workshop, etc. Then later, it can be scorched into a plains tile (if you have improved terraforming on). This means that by midgame, that tundra tile can be a plains tile with +2 food or +1-5 comerce, etc. Comparing this to a coast tile, the coast tile will be producing enough food to feed itself and 2 commerce (3 if financial), with no way of further upgrading it beyond what it started out as.

This all means to me that the only possible way that a coastal city could be considered OP is if it was one of the rarely placed ones with 4 coastal squares that you can get 2 fishing villages and 1 resource one. Why? Because with enough workers and a few adepts, every single interior tile not taken by a mountain will produce far more than a coast square. Are these cities OP? Maybe. On the other hand, they are also rare, and will form central points for your civilization, and every civ has major cities and minor cities.

-Colin
 
How are the values of the trade routes are ROUNED?

The mouseove in city screen states a 1.98 :commerce: trade route as 1:commerce:.
Is that true?

I believe that either one of the modules that Sephi incorporated, or something that he wrote himself made it so that the 1.98 :commerce: is counted completely into the commerce that the city makes. I am not however completely sure of this. Base civ (and base FFH) count that as just 1 :commerce: however.
 
@readercolin: wow you sure can talk alot. You totally owned me there. I must humbly beg your forgiveness for ever crossing your path. You are right, and I was the stupid one why just did not se the mistakes you so surely pointed out to me. Of course. 30 warriors. How could I not think of that.
 
I am not trying to sound like I am disparaging your method of playing. I am just trying to say that an equal number of hammers in a different area can produce significantly different results, leading to a very large difference in play style. As such, the boost to ones economy that 30 warriors doing their thing is approximately the equivalent in the early game to getting the great lighthouse, and building one cities worth of commerce buildings. Because of this hammer cost, I do not believe that the idea that coastal trade cities are OP.

-Colin
 
It's probably just my pacifist predisposition talking, but it seems to me that conquering neighbors early-mid game tends to do my economy more harm than good for a long time. That is, the city number restriction in FFH is strict, and anything beyond 3 to 4 cities sucks up quite a bit of commerce early on.

Conquered cities can be incorporated with technology and time, of course, but even then I usually prefer to choose my city sites instead of taking ******** AI placements - again, because of the aforementioned limitation.

In other words, trade improves the efficiency of existing cities without necessitating the incorporation of new ones, which is something to consider economics-wise even though it does lead to less production.
 
Yes, Wits, thank you. Unless you want to either win very fast by just bulldozing everyone, or like to have a crappy economy for a long time, the only reason for killing off civs early is just to reduce competition later on. Couldn't you just reduce the number of AIs instead?

Besides, not everyone likes the warmonger style. There is a lot of folks that, like me, are builder type players. For us, the fun of the game is to make a great empire, much like playing SimCity. 30 warriors does not exactly fit in this picture.

In a typical game, I build enough warriors to secure the immidate area around the capital, and then build one or two workers. Then, it is just buildnings and settlers from there on. I groan if I have to spend hammers on another pesky warrior, tools that should have been spent on my new library.
 
Would you perferred if I had instead said that instead of building the commerce city's buildings/boats, you could have instead built 3 workers and a warrior to guard them? For the cost of the great lighthouse you could instead build 3-6 workers? Instead of 30 warriors, you could have built 10 workers? Instead of building 300 :hammers: worth of buildings and boats, you could have built a settler and 3 warriors, giving you yet another city? Instead of building the great lighthouse, you could have built 1-2 settler sets? Instead of the coastal city set, you could build a pagan temple, elder council, market, and 1 religious temple?

By a direct hammer comparison, it seems to me at least that there is quite a bit that could possibly be better served (in the early game) than by building those buildings. Now, will you want to build those buildings eventually? Yes - but generally you build them because you want that +1 food from the lighthouse, or the extra health from the harbor. Now, in the midgame, it makes sense to build them for the trade routes as it is more likely that you will actually have a worthwhile trade network. But for the early game? I rather doubt it.

-Colin
 
Quite often than not, it is not a simple matter of choosing to delay building it as to rush to build it first - this is particularly dependent on your play style. I am a builder/mid-late game conquest type player so I like to build my economy first - so I prefer going for commerce.

I agree with the train of thought to reduce lighthouse to +1 trade route only; the great lighthouse maybe should be +1 trade routes in all coastal cities instead of 2 but maybe have free lighthouse in all coastal cities? (probably way too OP; but increase cost to compensate?)
 
Chilling out the early game area attacks is probably the biggest balance issue in the game right now. Pyre Zombies are a bit absurd. Even if they had a damage cap, they would still be a combined Axeman/Catapult; - the ability to withdraw, + the ability to actually kill their target. Lethal AoE attacks should probably be restricted to Tier III units or world units.

The balance changes I'd most like to see are ones concerning leader traits. Trader in particular. This one should be brought in line with the Lost Lands economic civic; after all leaders with this trait are converting commerce into foodstuffs and labor not creating goods out of thin air.

I don't think a trait should be so powerful that a leader is restricted to one trait. The Lanun leader Mordmorgan should be Trader, Ingenuity, Swashbuckler perhaps. Actually, at least one Lanun leader should have Swashbuckler. I've only seen this trait appear on an Emergent leader.

By the same token, Hippus Tactician should get turned into a minor trait; reduced to Flanking I on mounted units only. Captain Ostanes could get 1-2 other traits. Ingenuity and Organized would be my choices.

Industrious leaders would get +1 hammer from workshops and lumbermills. This trait does need a boost.

I think the only other change I'd advocate is some kind of boost to the Social Order civic. I'm not sure what though; a large + city defense perhaps? Although that's hardly a big deal by the time you have access to the civic.
 
Actually, one thing I would like to see get a smack to the kneecaps is Savants and Acolytes popping from dungeons. I guess it is a testament to how diligently Sephi has made the AI explore these features, but in my last 3 games both AV and Order have been founded by nations exploring dungeons. Holy cities are pretty significant to be being assigned totally by chance.

I don't seem to find the earlier three religions to have this particular problem though.
 
What I'd really love to see is the T1 religious units get yanked from the results list for lairs entirely. In their place 3-4 lesser great people could be created: scholar, thespian, judge, and master craftsman. Freeing one of these fellows allows you to create a library, theatre, courthouse, or forge in a city, sort of like supplies only not requiring the technology. If this isn't good enough, allow each building to get +1 of an appropriate resource (beaker, hammer, commerce).

Of course, any new idea like this would require teaching the AI how to use them, so its probably not worth the effort.
 
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