Barbarian activity in modern age

rmontaruli

Prince
Joined
Sep 10, 2002
Messages
441
Location
Italy
I want to suggest a new concept of barbarian activity in modern age, after descovering of industrialization.

There could be compare elseware on the map units of barbarian workers.
They should represent the migration of people from underdeveloped countries.

The caracteristic of this new unit could be the follow:
it works at 50% like a foreing worker and costs food or shelds
if added to a city it is always unhappy
you cannot disband it
you can trade it, but it has a negative value (i.e. you have to offer something in order to give this unit to other civs).

Other suggestions are welcome.
 
sealman said:
a) why would you capture a worker unit that you can not disband which works at the same rate as a captured civ worker but you have to pay the upkeep?
Of course you are not liked to capture them.
My idea is that these units that born as barbarians change their color to the first unit they meet, and if you try to avoid them, they go to the nearest city and add themself

sealman said:
b) there are no underdeveloped countries in civ games, unless an entire AI civ is behind the tech curve.
They are barbarian units, not units of other civs in the game

sealman said:
c) were would these barbarian workers popup location wise?
In any unoccupied square, or in a transport boat...
 
perhaps it could be the result of a city in disorder, it produces a rebel unit?
 
sealman said:
thanks for the clarification but I don't like the idea. For some reason, it just dose not seem "Civ-ish" to me.
I respect your opinion, however here is a short gallery of photos
http://tinyurl.com/4dpyd
that show what happens in Italy (and not only here) every day.
Old and half-sinked boats filled with those desperate people escaping from their countries and owning just the hope to survive.

I suggest to introduce this concept in the next civ game, in order to have to deal with somebody you cannot fight who causes light damage to your economy and attempts to happines of your citizens...
 
Barbarians should remain nuisances/threats I think and should never become benefits to a civilization. Changing them to Fanatics in the middle ages, Luddites in the industrial era and Terrorists in the modern era work for me. They represent the world's populations who just refuse to accept civilization as a benefit to mankind.

Immigrants/Emigrants on the other hand are much different and I would also love to see them be incorporated in Civ 4. I had some ideas on their activity in another thread and would like to rehash those:

The basis for this idea stems from an arbitrary judgment of the 'living condition' in a given country. This is already tracked/trackable now and visible in the civ status screen where you can see your country's rating of population, land area, literacy, disease rate, military service, family size, etc. Other factors should be included in this.. national pride (largest city compared to other nations, is the civ growing or shrinking recently, compared to others), culture level, science level, war weariness, and government type (some gov's are more 'free' than others, which are more repressive). Atrocities might be another factor for the negative. Add all these together and call it the living condition.

Now citizens of country A, seeing better living in country B might leave their home city, automatically form a settler/refugee (controlled by the universal AI) and begin to physically travel to a better life. Country A might not be happy with that after all, there goes their best and brightest! They could choose to capture/enslave the discontents with military units and reeducate them back into society, but the citizen(s) might remain forever 'drones' as in SMAC. permanently content or unhappy but Never a happy citizen again. They could alternately destroy the settler, creating an 'atrocity' point among other countries. Or, they could just let the bastards go, hey love it or leave it! Perhaps every settler that leaves Country A would raise A's 'living condition' slightly to represent the notion that if people Are unhappy then at least they can head towards a better life since they are free to do so. Country B is going to have a blessing and a curse when those settlers reach her shores. (assume settler creates it's own sea transport/refugee boat if necessary) The settler will head towards the nearest city in Country B with excess food and automatically join the population. Country B has the same options A had, in reverse: Let the immigration happen, kill the illegal immigrant (atrocity point), or evict it from the land. (upon eviction, wanderer would look for the next best civ and travel there). If the migration is successful, the first effect is Country B's 'living condition' lowering slightly. Then for X turns the new immigrant will be a drain on the host city's resources and not an effective producer. The raising/lowering living conditions in Country A and B by migration are to help balance the flood of refugees so that they do not become a nightmare.

Now here's the kicker..

New Great Wonder, Statue of Liberty (ha, you saw this coming). Requirements: Democracy, at least 3 immigrants to your civilization from another civilization or civilizations have been assimilated successfully. Effects: automatic Instant assimilation of further immigrants. Culture + 3 per turn/ + 5 for each immigrant assimilated. *Increases immigration rate* Never expires.

New Great Wonder, Berlin Wall. Requirements: Fascism or Communism, at least 2 emigrants have left your country's borders. Effects: automatic prevention of the emigration process; citizens never leave your cities voluntarily. Culture - 1 per turn, turns one unhappy citizen in every city to content. Increase in worker productivity, and/or decrease in corruption under both Fascism and Communism, but increases war weariness under Democracy and Republic. Expires with construction of SDI or just the research of Integrated Defense.

Under the topic 'New Civ Traits' I mentioned a few new specialists that would be civ type specific. If a migration system like the one above were put into place, any civ could change one of it's citizens in a city to a specialist that the nationality of that citizen could have made in its own land. Example: if England is Expansionistic/Commercial, then an English expatriot in an American city could be changed from a resource gatherer to either an 'Adventurer/Archaelogist' specialist or a 'Banker' specialist and would give the benefits of those types to the American city. This would also work for captured workers or hired labor (workers traded between nations).

-Elgalad
 
Elgalad said:
Barbarians should remain nuisances/threats ...

You explained what i mean very well! :goodjob:
Such a concept could be a great improvement for the next release of CIV.

Elgalad said:
New Great Wonder, Berlin Wall.

Why "Great Wonder"?
It should be a "Small wonder" to permit to more CIVS to build it, and, of course, could be destroyed when a civ change from Fascism/Communism to Democracy
 
I would like to see a new system of minor civs (which could be barbarians) and outlaws that cause problems for civs. They could be:

1.Barbarians
2. Pirates
3. Guerrillas
4. Terrorists
5. Revolutionists

All of these are independent from all civs (although, negiations could take place for these to bribe these not to attack me or to attack another civ. All of these would be effect the whole way through the game unlike in the current civ, where the barbarians never upgrade and pirate ships are operated by a civ.
 
Valid point, Rmontaruli. The Berlin Wall should be buildable by any totalitarian government. Call it the Iron Curtain perhaps.. It's primary purpose would be to prevent emigration, but it would have a slight productivity or anti-discontent (but not happiness) benefit as well, motivation through fear. And yes, when the civ changes to a Republic or Democracy it should fall. ;)

-Elgalad
 
searcheagle said:
5. Revolutionists

Might be a point of semantics, but I would rather see this called 'Anarchists' rather than 'Revolutionists'. Revolutionaries are usually citizens who have an end goal in mind - changing and improving the system. Anarchists just want to destroy it.

-Elgalad
 
I think rmontaruli is actullay referring to refugees.
Nations today are obliged to accept refugees where possible as an act of humanitarism. They obviously immediately prove a temporary burden to which ever country they land in. These additions do not often have skills as such but many posses a grit and great desire to integrate and do well which is not reflected in rmontaruli's idea.

Perhaps this could work if they are seen as free worker which cost more to upkeep but in turn work twice as fast.

In the modern age taking in refugees would make the civ appear humanitarian and would have a positive effect on how others nations viewed this civ.
 
I think montaruli is refering to 'economic refugees'. Though they would not necesarily be a terrible thing. A few years ago the government of my country was screaming out for more immigrants. Also would the US have become a superpower as soon as it did if immigrants were holding progress back.
Whether immigrants would be good or bad would have to be tied to your economy, that is how much room your economy has to grow. Also, even if immigrants were having a posivtive effect on your economy they would cause unhappiness among some of your natives.

Political refugees is a different matter. Maybe if there was a war between two neighbouring states you get accept refugees who would instantly join a city of your choice. Good point is that you have instant growth in city size. Bad point is that there is a small bit of unhappiness among some of your natives.

As regards barbarians, I once modded my game to give guerilla units a hidden nationality. The result being that you were in a constant war with your neighbours despite having good relations.
There is room to refine this idea but you get the picture.

I like the idea of revelutionaries being spawned by too much unhappiness and disorder, however it would have to be linked to the return of the civil war of civ 2. Not that half your civ would turn into a new civ because one city is unhappy. Just one city with overriding unhappiness will be sieged by rebels of a new civ spawned from the unhappiness. If the rebels take the city they get to keep the culture to avoid an easy flip back.
 
Only a few modern nations have problems with guerilla uprisings or terrorists. Modern barbarians should be a result of how your civ behaves. Perhaps a result of occopation of others, or unhappy citizens!

Just an opinion from the cold, but peaceful Norway!
 
:eek:


If you are referring to the actual modern world, not the world inside the game I am afraid you are gravely mistaken. Modern day Barbarians (or Terrorists) have been active in Every powerful nation recently. It is more a direct result of the nation's power or standing in the world than any particular actions or policy they are pursuing. Saying that they are alone responsible for whether or not they are targetted by barbarians (terrorists) is tantamount to accusing a victim of rape or other serious crime for their own violation.

I challenge you to name modern countries that have Not been impacted. Even your own Norway has recently been added to Osama bin Laden's so called 'hit list'. http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article550828.ece

Terrorism is not an answer to a nation's actions or policies, but to its success. I reiterate my earlier comment that some folks simply refuse to accept civilization as a benefit to mankind.

-Elgalad
 
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