Barbarian nations

[filli_noctus]

The discussion about the Huns going on in the G+K forum has got me thinking about barbarians. Particularly the phrase 'super barbarians' that has been mentioned a few times.
There have been a few threads about improving barbarians, usually by having them turn into civs once certain conditions have been fulfilled but on that really caught my attention was a suggestion for Great Barbarians, although I'm going to outline a different mechanic I love the concept.

The core of this suggestion is the idea that barbarians can get organised without losing what makes them barbarians. This means they won't be turning into civs or city-states.

At the start of the game all barbarians are just that, barbarians. They spawn camps that spawn units that wander round making nuisances of themselves until they're killed and the camp cleared. Normally if a camp isn't cleared it just spits out units ad infinitum and nothing else.
Under my proposal a camp has a chance of organising into a barbarian nation. This chance is increased by the following:
1. Number of units the camp has spawned
2. Recent battles involving barbarians near the camp (2 or 3 hexes)
3. If the camp contains a captured civilian

Once a camp organises the camp and any nearby barbarians units (again 2 or 3 hexes) become a named barbarian group (ie Goths, Vandals, Huns (well, not Huns as it seems they're going to be a full civ)). If another camp is within the radius it too joins the new barbarian group as do any adjacent barbarian units.
Once a barbarian nation is formed they immediately become more of a challenge. Bonuses v. barbarians due to game difficulty level will no longer apply to a barbarian nation (although those from the Honor tree will), units of a barbarian nation will be able to heal and gain experience and the strategic AI will be used.
A barbarian nation will be at war with regular barbarians and other barbarian nations. If one of their units occupies a camp belonging to a different barbarian faction it will change to the occupying units' faction and start spawning units for that nation.

As the nations units gain experience the nation gains Great Barbarian points in exactly the same way as a Civ or CS gains Great General points. Once the nation earns enough a Great Barbarian spawns in one of its' camps. Once a Great Barbarian spawns the nations units begin to head towards him as the strategic AI for the nation will switch to a conquest objective targeting the weakest nearby city.
Normally a barbarian nation, like other barbarians, will only be able to sack a city. However a Great Barbarian, in addition to granting a GG like combat buff, allows units of the same nation to capture a city within two hexes of him.

A city captured by a barbarian nation will not be their capital (they won't have one) and will lack a palace. It will, however, be immediately annexed and can start producing as soon as the anarchy period is over.
Barbarian cities are not affected by happiness but will always have a growth and production penalty, although neither of them as severe as regular unhappy/very unhappy penalties. Barbarian cities will concentrate on military units and buildings and will be incapable of building civilian units, capturing will be the only source of workers for barbarians. Under no circumstances will a barbarian nation be able to found a city.

Unlike regular barbarians a barbarian nation will engage in diplomacy, to a point. Diplomacy with a barbarian nation is conducted through a box similar to that of a city-state. This box will consist of the name of the barbarian nation, a list of items they want in tribute and a button to agree to that tribute in exchange for peace.
The demands will be decided based on relative military strengths and what you have available. Once you agree to pay tribute this will be paid in perpetuity unless you return to the diplomacy screen to stop paying or if they approach you to demand a higher level, at which point you may either agree or refuse.
Whilst paying tribute the barbarian nation will not attack you but as soon as you stop or attack one of their units they will attack again. Paying tribute also gives mutual open borders.
In addition barbarian nations will generally not attack a civ with significantly greater military power regardless of whether or not they are paying tribute.

 

[CYZ]

Very much like an idea I once posted. I like it.

One question: Won't the new world be filled up by barbarian nations. and most likely, won't one barb nation prevail over the other and dominate the new world?

This wouldn't have to be a bad thing, I would however make it so barbnations only get Great Barbarian point for battle they fight against units from actual civs or CS, not from other barbarians.

For the rest, I love it. Gives great potential for an increased and more refined barbarian role in the game. One last thing, it seems that the later options for barbarian nations are limited. However, you say you may speak with them as with CS. How about giving them an influence bar, except that you will have to increase influence to gain peace (opposed to decreasing influence to gain war). They would be the evil version of the CS, and possibly also give quests (evil quests ). Once you reach allied with them you may even bribe them to attack nearby CS or civs. That'd be great.

 

[filli_noctus]

I considered putting in bribing them to attack other civs as mentioned in the barbarian diplomacy thread but came to the conclusion, what's the point? They're going to be at war anyway and the AI tends to do nothing when you bribe a civ to attack a civ that isn't near their borders.
I also decided against more complex diplomacy as I think there should only be very simple ways to engage with them - fight, ignore or pay off - especially considering CS engagement is going to be more complex.
As to your point about the new world - yes there is a potential issue with Terra maps but it can be avoided by making barbarian nations more territorial and therefore less prone to wandering off and hoovering every camp into their empire. In addition assuming all the CS in the New World respond equivalently to barbarian camps there should be a couple of barb nations appearing at roughly the same time across the continent and should be spread out enough that a number greater than one survives until discovery.
Like civ units there would be a cap on XP earned from regular barbarians (but not other barb nations) so fighting regular barbarians can help towards spawning a Great Barbarian but would require the use of more units.

 

[dexters]

I can't see Barb cities being more effective than city states in warfare and bribing these guys to war sounds like a good idea, but probably not in the early game.

And frankly barb camps are enough of a pain in the early game and literally adding another layer of barbarians seem a bit too much.

Here's a suggestion. Allow barbarian cities to form up , after around the middle ages in isolated islands/island continents and parts of the map that still hasn't been settled.

They will work more like barbarian cities from Civ4, and be subject to a tech tree and unit production limitations of the city.

This will 1) correctly upgrade barbarians through the ages, rather than the current system of having barbarian infantry roaming around stone age encampments with an unupgraded warrior inside 2) create ready to 'take over' cities that players can puppet as they colonize new lands.

Currently, the game runs into an issue where, on pangea maps, but really on any larger maps, areas are often not settled for most of the game, and islands in particular are hard to settle because it is much easier to expand over land. And when there is a chance for a 2nd wave of expansion, human players and even some AI will not do so, as the incremental Social Policy, national wonder, and great leader costs of settling new cities make it not worthwhile. And there's no way to settle puppeted cities currently to avoid those costs (a related suggestion LouisXXIV and myself have made in our respective colonization threads is to allow settlers a 'settle colony' option that settles a puppet city after navigation is researched)