Barbarian superhuman

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by aragami_frog, Nov 2, 2007.

  1. aragami_frog

    aragami_frog Chieftain

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    Is it just me or does it seem that the Barbarian troops are more powerfull then the units of the same kind you can create?

    I can't tell you how many times I've had 2 of my axe men in a row go up against just one axe man of the Barbarian AI's and have them both be easily defeated. I always select improve strength 10% on each unit I create so I have that promotion.

    It's just I can't count how many times our units would be even and yet I'd lose a few waves of mine against their one, which if you think about it, after the first attack in the turn they lose some health and yet they are still at only 1/2 to 1/3'rd health able to easily take out one of my healty units.
     
  2. G Julius Caesar

    G Julius Caesar Warlord

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    You must just be being unlucky if your axemen are exactly the same as the enemy. Its a mathematical formula using a "random" number sequence to determine the outcome, so in theory in the long run, you will come out at evens. You may be overdue a run of lucky battles?!?!

    By "exactly the same" I mean that - same upgrades and on the same territory as that also affects the outcome (eg same promoted axemen with one attacking across a river on to fortified, forested axemen in hills will have a tough time of it).
     
  3. Civfan333

    Civfan333 full metal alchemist

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    Wait, are the barbarians on a hill or in a forest? That affects the outcome too.;)
     
  4. LlamaCat

    LlamaCat Emperor

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    depending on what difficulty level you will get better or worse odds against barbarians and animals in the early game. it's actually hard-coded into the game. I think this is one case where the random odds are not always truly random.
     
  5. Civfan333

    Civfan333 full metal alchemist

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    Oh Yeah, I forgot about that. If you play anything below noble, you're pretty much guarenteed to win.:D
     
  6. aragami_frog

    aragami_frog Chieftain

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    They might have one higher mod then me but really, at only 1/3'rd health how am I seriously supposed to take losing one of my fully healed and slightly boosted men against them that are the same army unit type.

    I have even had them climb up hill at little health and take out one of my fully healthy units.

    The crossing rivers deduction, the going uphill deduction, the attacking someone who's defended deduction seem to hit me harder if I was to attack them then it is when they are attack me under the same circumstances.

    I've also noticed that for some reason that scouts do VERY well against animals (Noble setting is what I play mostly) and rarely lose health while warriors and archers will battle it out and loose alot of health and sometimes get killed. I don't understand what it is about scouts that make them so well against animals. Although against ANY other unit the scouts are useless and I don't understand their rank promotions when if you select them the unit is still unable to take out ANYTHING.
     
  7. Thanny

    Thanny Warlord

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    First, you actually get a bonus against barbarians unless you're playing on a very high level. You're probably losing because you're attacking the barbarian on a hill, in a forest, or when it's fortified over a village. To find out what the combat odds are, press G and hover the mouse over the enemy barbarian. You'll see the combat odds, and the reasons for them, on the lower left corner. If they don't show up (this happens often), press Esc, move the mouse over the civ name list until your relations with the given civ show up, then repeat the above. Press Esc to avoid the attack, or click the mouse button to move and perform the attack.

    Scouts have a built-in bonus against animals, but that still doesn't make them stronger than Warriors. Scouts are also defensive-only combat units. They cannot attack.

    When all's said and done, unless you see to it that all your battles are done at >99.9 percent, you'll lose a few that the odds say you'll almost (key word: almost) certainly win. I've even seen a >99.9 battle lost once (though it was in vanilla, and was shown as 100.0% combat odds).
     
  8. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    Hovering your mouse pointer over your civ's flag is easier to do than that pressing escape thing with a mouse anyway.
     
  9. aragami_frog

    aragami_frog Chieftain

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    Yeah but I still find it hard to believe a Barbarian at 1/3rd health can battle off two healthy troops in a row. I've seen them battle off countless heatlhy troops of mine while having limited heatlh.
     
  10. G Julius Caesar

    G Julius Caesar Warlord

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    It will happen as there is a random throw of the dice affecting the outcome, so even at 99.99% you are not guaranteed a win.

    However, are you saying that your example above happens nearly all the time when you play (ie in different games, not the same example reloaded in as it WILL happen again and again there unless you select a different random seed)?

    That would sound like an error.

    You said you play Noble. I now play Prince and see barbarians as a gift of XP for my axemen when they come in waves to attack me early on. They are not that difficult to take on with careful planning, and whereas I dont win all the battles, I win most of the battles when they attack me across a river, on a hill, in a forest. You need to decide where the battle will take place.
     
  11. aragami_frog

    aragami_frog Chieftain

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    Not ALL the time but a majority of the time. Enough so to make it upseting.
     
  12. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    Sounds like classic selective memory to me - you remember when you lose two axes to a barb, but not when you win with one (or even two).

    The Civ 4 RNG has been tested on numerous occasions - the in game combat odds are reliable. Occasionally you're going to be unlucky - that's just how probability works.

    One thing I'd check - that you're not attacking barbs while they're on defensive bonus terrain (hills and/or forests and jungles). Unless you have no choice, such as when they're right on top of your improvements, it is better to let the barbarians attack you on a defendable tile rather than attacking them directly.
     
  13. G Julius Caesar

    G Julius Caesar Warlord

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    Exactly.

    I think what Mr Cynical is saying is, as I mentioned above, you choose your fights.

    If you are saying you are losing the battles a majority of the time, you are not fighting in the best way. Basic axe on axe with the same promotions - you'll have a tough time of it attacking them across a river, in to a hill, in to a forest. Get them to attack you across these. You'll win more battles then.

    Better still use appropriate units against others - spears vs horses, chariots vs axes (on Warlord), and put archers in hills.
     
  14. 6K Man

    6K Man Bureaucrat

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    I always seem to have this problem with barbarian galleys. I'll bring 2 galleys to sink the barbarian (I know that the coastal bonus gives the defending AI an advantage, of course), and quite often I'll lose them both, even though the first galley will weaken the barbarian to the the point where the second has overwhelming odds. And I can't recall sinking a barbarian galley with my first attacking galley EVER, despite having a 1 in 3 chance (or so) of doing so.

    I find that annoying, of course, but I also recognize that I occasionally win when I don't deserve to (Chariot knocked off a wounded AI cannon last night, 8% odds). Such is life in Civ4.
     

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