Barrage worthless for siege weapons?

[Megalou]

Well, those siege weapons are much more powerful than in CivIII. But I have not seen them cause collateral damage while bombaring. And who would use a 5hp catapult to attack a stack, or even a 15hp artillery? An artillery could perhaps take out a knight/cavalry out in the open, but then...

(1) The Barrage promotion would have no effect,
(2) You would probably have to use airplanes to be on the safe side, and if you have airplanes, they take care of the collateral damage bit much better.

The only time barrage would be even the tiniest bit useful for siege weapons is if they miraculously survive being attacked while inside a town. But I consider it unlikey that I will even bother to build them for defensive puposes.

Am I missing something?
Are the other promotions any better?

 

[eumaies]

you seem to be missing out on the most important tactic for taking cities and wars in general...

attacking an enemy stack with a catapult causes damage to all the units in the stack. Barrage upgrade increases this damage. This is the primary way to defeat large enemy stacks or entrenched defenses (usally done after bombarding).

Catapults sometimes withdraw, other times die. it's a throw away unit.

 

[Megalou]

No, I don't think I missed that. Again, see the italics: When I have attacked I have seen collateral damage. When I have bombarded, I have not seen it. And if you face a town with 60% defense - will you attack!?

Do you mean that even if the catapult loses, it causes collateral damage?

 

[DaemonDivinity]

You bombard then attack. Historical sieges took years. Don't just bring one catapult. eumaies is right.

 

[salty]

You were expecting the defenders to line the castle walls while you bombard, chanting "I fart in your general direction"?

 

[Megalou]

You were expecting the defenders to line the castle walls while you bombard, chanting "I fart in your general direction"?

Definitely! Medieval cluster bombs Beowulf-with-Christopher Lambert-style. (Worst degrading of a classic to date.)

Seriously:

Do you mean that even if the catapult loses, it causes collateral damage?

Otherwise I like to think I'd use them for the next city too.

 

[ChuckDizzle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it takes 5 Catapults to lower any town's
defense to 0%. So you bring 6-7 in a stack and attack the same turn with the Cats that haven't bombarded. They cause collateral damage, then your swords or axes with city raider upgrade attack. Maybe you even use some horse archers, I don't know. (replace with era appropriate units, if necessary) The important thing is, when you're going to war, have a city spamming catapults every 3 or so turns and continually be sending them to the front. I never go to war without artillery of some kind.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

No, I don't think I missed that. Again, see the italics: When I have attacked I have seen collateral damage. When I have bombarded, I have not seen it. And if you face a town with 60% defense - will you attack!?

Do you mean that even if the catapult loses, it causes collateral damage?

Yes

for attacking a city you need two groups of catapults
G1: Defense destroyers (they bombard until the defense is 0%) [they have the Accuracy promotion if you can get it]

G2: Sucicide bombers (as many Barrage promotions as possible) they attack the stack and
1. pair up against a defender
2. Cause collateral damage
3. THEN they engage in normal combat with the defender (and usually die, sometimes retreat, occasionaly win)

 

[Megalou]

OK, if you are talking axemen times then the catapults have comparable hp. I have not tried going to conquest mode that early yet. I'd still like to know if the catapults cause collateral damage even when they lose. eumaies seemd to think I didn't know what barrage is at all. (Forum criticism "Raider" promotion?)

Edit: thanks Krikkitone

 

[automator]

This whole conversation comes back to the new element in Civ4, which is having a varied stack on attack, and lots of bombardment. The guy who brought extra is right. You use your first wave of catapults/cannons/artillery to bombard down to zero defense, then attack with those you have promoted to barrage I or II to weaken the units stationed in the city. Yes, bombers are more effective at this and are much less likely to be destroyed in the process, but you have ground bombardment units for a long, long time before you have radio and flight.

Barring having lots of cats, bring about five. Turn one you bombard to zero, turn two, attack with barrage and then use your fighting units to finish the job.

 

[ChuckDizzle]

Like Krikkitone says, Cats are good throughout the middle ages as well, because of collateral damage. Otherwise, your knights are going to have a real hard time against those pikemen. Cats are cheap. They're expendable. I like the city raider promotion, myself. I'll chose it over the combat series, if I know I'm going to use these units to actually take cities. Also, promoting your axemen with the shock promotion (+25% vs. melee) makes them a great counter to other axemen.

 

[Megalou]

Cool! Thank you all for saving me some testing time.

 

[Pbhead]

I like giving my cats city raider promotions (straight from the barraks civics and westpoint) a 5 str cat when attacking with city raider III really has about 8.5 NO longer suiside bomers now! (and it gets better with cannon and artiliry)