[NFP] Barriers for new players

[acluewithout]

Does Civ have any barriers for new players? Is there anything FXS could do to make the game easier for new players?

Just from reading things like reddit, I think there are maybe three key barriers for players getting into this game.

First, loyalty. Loyalty obviously isn’t an issue for players playing with just Vanilla, but it seems to cause some players using expansions real headaches and put them off. I think FXS should seriously think about making Loyalty a Game Mode or give it a slider at game creation so new players can dial it down. That might mean Dark Ages would need some additional negative, but frankly that might be a good thing anyway given how forgiving Dark Ages are currently.

Second, AI aggression. I see lots of complaints about AI aggression and AI hating them. Thing is, I don’t think AI aggression needs to be dialled down. Instead, I think the game just needs needs to do a better job of explaining what is happening Diplomatically, particularly stuff around AI declaring wars because you’re encroaching into their territory or your military is too weak. Lots of ways to improve that, but something simple would just be the leader dialogues actually saying you’ve settled too close or your military is too weak.

Third, Great Prophets. New players seem to really struggle with founding a Religion. I really think new players would benefit from an option via game generation to just be gifted a Great Prophet, a bit like Arabia. I know that would gut the Religion Mechanic if you switched that option on, but it would let new players just get into Religion without worrying about all the set up, and they might then be encouraged to play with Religion more.

Thoughts?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

AI hating the player for no reason is a strictly stupid mechanic which should've been removed one week after release. Yet here we are. It's obviously worse on Deity, but there is simply no reason for this being in the game. I think a lot of player simply feel like the AI is overtly aggressive because they never build units and the AI auto declares on them because their military score is very low. It's something you get used to pretty swiftly imho. Civ 6 AI is, if anything, overtly peaceful compared to Civ 5!

I really disagree on Great Prophets. If you're not getting a Religion while playing on Settler or Prince, you probably should not be blaming the game, but rather review your decisions up to that point.

 

[bengalryan9]

AI hating the player for no reason is a strictly stupid mechanic which should've been removed one week after release. Yet here we are. It's obviously worse on Deity, but there is simply no reason for this being in the game. I think a lot of player simply feel like the AI is overtly aggressive because they never build units and the AI auto declares on them because their military score is very low. It's something you get used to pretty swiftly imho. Civ 6 AI is, if anything, overtly peaceful compared to Civ 5!

I really disagree on Great Prophets. If you're not getting a Religion while playing on Settler or Prince, you probably should not be blaming the game, but rather review your decisions up to that point.

Does the game do a great job making it crystal clear that you have to build a holy site to get a religion, though? A brand new player might be busy building settlers, builders, or military units, all of which have more obvious and tangible benefits. Even as far as districts are concerned, it's pretty easy to see how you benefit from building a campus (for science), a commercial hub (for gold), and a theater square (for culture), because it's pretty clear why these are important. Does a new player even know what they need faith for? You can't even spend it on anything until certain conditions are met!

I tried getting a good friend of mine into Civ 6 a few months ago and it didn't stick. I think the problem as far as new players are concerned is that there is so much to do in the early ages it can become overwhelming. You need to learn how to defend yourself, scout out the land, build new cities in good locations, get your infrastructure up and running, choose your pantheon, (possibly) choose your religious beliefs, improve your tiles, etc... and all the while a new player has a bunch of early Wonders with incredibly attractive bonuses there to distract them. I got the impression in talking to my friend that he would've had an easier turn playing the game if some of these decisions were taken off the table for him to start off with in his first couple of games.

Start new players with 3 cities to make it easier for them to muli-task and learn the actual mechanics. It would be an OP bonus but who cares if the purpose is learning how to play. Just include an "I'm a new player" checkbox in the game setup that lets those who need it have access to it.

 

[criZp]

Or give the player +2 settlers on settler difficulty. But stuff like scouting or getting a pantheon/religion isn't exactly something you "have" to do, you can't just get into a game and expect to know everything from the start, but you only need to play a game or two to grasp the basics.

 

[bengalryan9]

Or give the player +2 settlers on settler difficulty. But stuff like scouting or getting a pantheon/religion isn't exactly something you "have" to do, you can't just get into a game and expect to know everything from the start, but you only need to play a game or two to grasp the basics.

If you don't scout you're probably going to be having a lot of trouble with barbarians.

As far as pantheons/religions are concerned, for all the talk among veteran players about how religion isn't worth chasing I think a new player is going to assume that if they're in the game they are beneficial to pursue.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Does the game do a great job making it crystal clear that you have to build a holy site to get a religion, though?.

Very good point you're making. I think you are correct. Many mechanics in Civ 6 are utterly unclear and the Civilopedia is so much worse than for previous iterations. Even for the players that do realize that Prophets are bound to Holy Sites, do they know that they're bound to GPP instead of faith? Do they know that GPP can be gotten from sources other than Holy Sites? Do they know that they're competing with the AI? Do they know that GPP are literally worthless after the prophets are gone? No, because that information is not easily available! So yeah, full agree on this one.

 

[criZp]

If you don't scout you're probably going to be having a lot of trouble with barbarians.

As far as pantheons/religions are concerned, for all the talk among veteran players about how religion isn't worth chasing I think a new player is going to assume that if they're in the game they are beneficial to pursue.

I lost pretty hard in my first game in civ 5 (which does have less mechanics to confuse the player, for sure). That didn't put me off, it just made me want to try again and do better, with the stuff I learned through the first game. I think people who get put off are perhaps too focused on winning, and I think civ is much more about the "journey", and winning/losing is just there to wrap up the game and let you start another one.

 

[PhilBowles]

Does Civ have any barriers for new players? Is there anything FXS could do to make the game easier for new players?

Just from reading things like reddit, I think there are maybe three key barriers for players getting into this game.

First, loyalty. Loyalty obviously isn’t an issue for players playing with just Vanilla, but it seems to cause some players using expansions real headaches and put them off. I think FXS should seriously think about making Loyalty a Game Mode or give it a slider at game creation so new players can dial it down. That might mean Dark Ages would need some additional negative, but frankly that might be a good thing anyway given how forgiving Dark Ages are currently.

Second, AI aggression. I see lots of complaints about AI aggression and AI hating them. Thing is, I don’t think AI aggression needs to be dialled down. Instead, I think the game just needs needs to do a better job of explaining what is happening Diplomatically, particularly stuff around AI declaring wars because you’re encroaching into their territory or your military is too weak. Lots of ways to improve that, but something simple would just be the leader dialogues actually saying you’ve settled too close or your military is too weak.

Third, Great Prophets. New players seem to really struggle with founding a Religion. I really think new players would benefit from an option via game generation to just be gifted a Great Prophet, a bit like Arabia. I know that would gut the Religion Mechanic if you switched that option on, but it would let new players just get into Religion without worrying about all the set up, and they might then be encouraged to play with Religion more.

Thoughts?

Older versions of Civ had advisors - the Civ V ones were notoriously useless, especially the military advisor whose only advice was 'build more units' - however that may be exactly what newer players need to help explain the systems and teach them what to do to mitigate such things as low loyalty. Civ 6 has a cursory tutorial that may not have been updated with the expansions, where games like Total War or Stellaris have optional in-game advisors that take the player through basic concepts, give them quests to complete that help them master core ideas, and link them to the relevant help pages (which would work better in Civ 6 if the Civilopedia were up to scratch).

I don't think any of the above are real barriers for new players (I don't especially like the Great Prophet system, but I don't think it's hard to get religion on low difficulties - rather the game probably sets an expectation that new players should be trying to go for religion when they're better off learning more generally useful game systems and learning in what circumstances they *should* aim for a religion. Give players a mechanic and they'll assume it's always important unless told otherwise, rather than a strategic choice). As mentioned the AI is far more passive than in Civ V, which pre-BNW could make an argument for being too aggressive.

They're all barriers in communication rather than gameplay - institute an contextual, in-game tutorial and then see what issues if any new players are still having. For instance, when you first meet a civ - if you have an advisor option turned on - you might have a Foreign Policy advisor popping up with a message along the lines "Meeting new civilisations offers an opportunity for diplomatic exchange, but also for conflict", perhaps with a recommended quest to X military units. Settling within X tiles of another civ (ideally outside the loyalty malus radius) could prompt an 'are you sure?' question from the Cultural Advisor, warning you that cities too far from your main empire may risk disloyalty and advising construction of monuments, addition of governors, acquiring amenities, and growing quickly to maximise population. Getting a pantheon, finding a Natural Wonder or settling near stone could prompt a suggestion to research Astrology and try for a religion.

 

[Melliores]

I do not think the game is difficult for new players, it is just too complex compared to other games out there when you take into account all the interlocked systems in place. That and the fact that nowadays a lot of people seem to be reluctant to read and learn.

Loyalty is a good example of this - when in Settler view you have the malus per tile clearly visible to you if you settle there. When you select a governor to resettle, it shows you the change of loyalty per turn. When you go to a city screen there is a whole section dedicated to loyalty per turn and how it breaks down. Loyalty actually suffers from the reverse - unless you make it a point to push it to its limits, you rarely notice it during a game.

Players also have the option to select the vanilla set of rules if they do not feel like they are ready for loyalty. I would even suggest they do so, just to get a grip on the basics. After a game or two with vanilla rules they can add the expansions.

Aggression - the agenda of each ruler is an issue for sure. It is totally unclear and sometimes even counterproductive to that ruler. However the plr not building any military units in the first two Eras is an issues that has been present for as long as I have been playing CIV (since 1994). That is simply something they need to learn and one of the Inspirations actually asks you to have 8 military units. The military score is clearly visible if you turn on the diplomacy banners.

Religion - on the religion page once you get a Pantheon it gives you the hint that you need to obtain a Great Prophet to be able to create a new religion. They you can either go to the Civpaedia to check what a Great Prophet is or the Great People page. After that you clearly see that you get one once you accumulate enough GPP points.

I think it is fairly obvious and you have at least two ways to obtain the necessary info. The game does not hold your hand and that has been part of the civ approach for as long as I can remember.
The game also does not in any way, shape or form make religion sound like a mandatory thing to get - you can still have a religion even you if you have not founded one. You can even build holy sites without a religion, which was interesting to me for the first few games.

As much as I do not wish to take the high ground, I think it is the approach that new players have that will need to be adjusted, not the game itself. New players have the habit of expecting the game to be hands on, to show them everything they need to do. They lack any adventurous spirit and desire to experiment and learn by trial and error. CIV 6 is one of the most accessible 4x games out there in my experience.

 

[bengalryan9]

After that you clearly see that you get one once you accumulate enough GPP points.

You *might* get one once you accumulate enough GPP points - assuming that the AI doesn't beat you to it. Would a new player know that it's a race to get them and that there are only so many religions available per map? Would a new player know how to maximize their GPP production? I'm not so sure.

Religion - on the religion page once you get a Pantheon it gives you the hint that you need to obtain a Great Prophet to be able to create a new religion. They you can either go to the Civpaedia to check what a Great Prophet is or the Great People page. After that you clearly see that you get one once you accumulate enough GPP points.

Why should they have to go looking for it in the first place? Would it really be that hard to have an advisor pop up and say even something simple like "Founding a religion comes with both positives and negatives. If we would like to pursue one, we need to build a Holy Site and maximizing our Great Prophet Points by building buildings their or doing the Prayer project."? Heck, if they don't know to get some type of faith production early on they might not even get a pantheon until after the prophets are gone... what good is that religion screen going to do for them then?

The game does not hold your hand and that has been part of the civ approach for as long as I can remember.

Just because something's always been done one way doesn't mean it should continue being done that way. It can be improved.

As much as I do not wish to take the high ground, I think it is the approach that new players have that will need to be adjusted, not the game itself. New players have the habit of expecting the game to be hands on, to show them everything they need to do. They lack any adventurous spirit and desire to experiment and learn by trial and error.

Again, I've got to disagree. I think anyone who picks up a copy of Civ 6 is very interested in having an adventure and in experimenting with different ways to play... if you weren't, you wouldn't pick it up. That said, you need to learn to crawl before you can walk, and you can't run until you can do both. I can show you how to play chess and explain how the game works and you'll still have infinite strategies to learn through practice, but if I just hand you the board and pieces and tell you "good luck" you're probably going to get frustrated even if I let you look things up in the manual or on your phone.

I've mentioned how I tried to get my friend into Civ 6... I'm just relaying the feedback he gave me. He's not the type of player who needs his hand held - he love the Monster Hunter series and they're pretty notorious for not explaining much about what you need to do - but even he was getting a little overwhelmed/frustrated getting into Civ 6. I think improvements can be made here.

 

[Killer Rabbit]

The Civ series has always been the most new-player friendly 4X game by far in my opinion, and this is no different with Civ 6. The tutorial and the advisers are pretty solid, all things considered. And I think it's somewhat inevitable that the first game people play will often be a bit of a struggle. I remember struggling in my first game of Civ 4 back in the day.

However, FXS is now falling into the problem that many of these games have when they have had a lot of expansion content: the tutorial is only relevant to the base game, and the expansion content is explained super quickly at the beginning of the game, in a way that's intended for people who already own the game. So it's totally overwhelming for people who've never played before.

I think that an updated tutorial, or series of tutorials, or a sort of recommendation of how to learn the game (start with base game, then progress to adding expansion mechanics) would be very helpful. And maybe making some mechanics optional, like loyalty, though for me that's never been a big issue.

Again, I think FXS is very good at this and is far and away the best in the genre. Amplitude's games are terrible at onboarding, to the point that I bounced off Endless Legend when playing with the complete version. Too many unexplained mechanics, and a tutorial that only pertains to the base game.

So I think that an updated tutorial or a recommendation of how to learn, which content to enable, would go a long way.

 

[PhilBowles]

The Civ series has always been the most new-player friendly 4X game by far in my opinion, and this is no different with Civ 6. The tutorial and the advisers are pretty solid, all things considered. And I think it's somewhat inevitable that the first game people play will often be a bit of a struggle. I remember struggling in my first game of Civ 4 back in the day.

However, FXS is now falling into the problem that many of these games have when they have had a lot of expansion content: the tutorial is only relevant to the base game, and the expansion content is explained super quickly at the beginning of the game, in a way that's intended for people who already own the game. So it's totally overwhelming for people who've never played before.

I think that an updated tutorial, or series of tutorials, or a sort of recommendation of how to learn the game (start with base game, then progress to adding expansion mechanics) would be very helpful. And maybe making some mechanics optional, like loyalty, though for me that's never been a big issue.

Again, I think FXS is very good at this and is far and away the best in the genre. Amplitude's games are terrible at onboarding, to the point that I bounced off Endless Legend when playing with the complete version. Too many unexplained mechanics, and a tutorial that only pertains to the base game.

So I think that an updated tutorial or a recommendation of how to learn, which content to enable, would go a long way.

Stellaris probably has the best tutorial I've seen in a straight 4x game, and the game's gone through huge changes in both the addition of new systems and the way pre-existing ones work that the tutorial has kept in step with. The advisor presents a series of basic quests to complete that introduce different game systems (it doesn't give quest rewards beyond completing the quests and learning the system, but if a Civ equivalent wanted a reward structure it could provide a random goody hut bonus, a low-tier unit, or a eureka experienced players would expect to have by that stage in the game - basically things that don't incentivise players to play the tutorial quests if they don't need to).

 

[hans510]

Slightly different take, I think one of the biggest barriers for new players is learning how to create and play a game that fits their style and they'll enjoy. There are so many different ways to play Civ and some of them are fun to me and some aren't as much and I'd think new players would have a hard time sorting through all the mechanics to find the fit that works for them to really enjoy the game. There are factors when setting up the game and others about how you approach it once created that change how that specific game will play out. I've been playing Civ forever so I know what I like and how to avoid the parts I don't, most of them at least but it would take a new player some time to get to that point.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Just culture, diplo, or religious victories. They're all poorly explained.

 

[bengalryan9]

Just culture, diplo, or religious victories. They're all poorly explained.

Absolutely. I think a lot of veteran players (myself included) would struggle to explain how a culture victory actually works. All you'd get from me is a "raise tourism as high as possible and then it just kind of happens over time, sometimes".

Era score and ages aren't explained well, either. Would a brand new player have any idea what's going on there? Since this is closely related to loyalty, it can become a big issue for newbies.

 

[criZp]

It's kinda hard to tell when the game doesn't even tell you the conversion formula culture/tourism to tourists.
And really, there should not be a such conversion, it's too complicated design. civ5's "raise tourism higher than culture" was sort of weird, but still better than the civ6 variant.
Unless Firaxis could come up with an actual use of tourists (and not just a proxy for gold), I think the "tourism victory" should be changed back to a read culture victory.
Like at the end of the civic tree you unlock a national art museum building (already exist in the gov district), that has a whole bunch of slots for art and artifacts (more slots than the current one).
And to win culture victory you have to fill and theme them all.

 

[TomKQT]

I think new players start with lower difficulties (or at least they should) and thus the factors you mentioned should not be a problem. The AI will probably still be aggressive (dunno), but will not be a real threat and it will at least teach the player to build at least some military units at the beginning.
And I would not give the option to get a free religion, getting one on a lower difficutly is easy anyway. I think it is even good if you don't get one in your first game by not building a Holy Site because there is so much features in the game to focus on so missing one can be helpful

 

[AsH2]

Does Civ have any barriers for new players? Is there anything FXS could do to make the game easier for new players?
..

Yes, but I don't think "easier" should be the key word - I would rather use "less confusing".
Imho, better UI and correct info is the way to go - eg using that left panel to explain things, is a good idea; but it's in general badly linked from main UI.