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Battling the world

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by tetley, Oct 19, 2014.

  1. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I've got a game-against-all-odds situation I could use your input with. I'm on immortal Tiny Islands, large, 10 civs. I made a few diplomatic mistakes, and now the leading AI bribed 7 of the 10 civs to DoW me. And of the three remaining, two were whipping boys I warmongered down to size. It has been like 20 turns and no one wants to discuss peace, even though I have taken two cities since then. Needless to say they are DoFing and RAing each other like crazy, and WC has banned two of my luxuries and they are about to embargo me. I'm 2 turns away from being the first to an ideology, but everybody's Exotic on me and my happiness is struggling because of WC. I already lost world's fair. I have a few CS allies, but they have overrun two of them and the rest of the CS are at war with me.

    Going in my favor: a bunch of Privateers and a humongous navy, all with yellow health. A bunch of Galleass with 60xp whom I am trying to promote to 100xp, and struggling to upgrade to frigates because I'm short on iron and money, because of my bad trade. Cities can one-shot them all, but I can avoid that by sacrificing captured caravels. But I'm being gradually out teched--not so much by science, but by money: I can't upgrade all my Galleass.

    Any ideas how I can bring some of these guys to peace, so it's not me vs. the whole world?
     
  2. renton555

    renton555 Warlord

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    i've never found a solution to the permadow from multiple civs, other than to try avoiding it. When you go to war, choose carefully who to take on first and try to get diplo bonuses by fighting a common enemy so theres at least a couple of trading partners that stick with you in the game.

    Now that you're here, probably choose Order to fix your happiness problem and your economy. Find a nice city state to send all your trade routes to and send your spies to coup iron-rich CS's, preferably mercantile ones. Sell less useful buildings in your cities to get a bit of gold and reduce maintenance, work your merchant specialists, etc to try to get gold to upgrade your navy. And concentrate your forces on cities with good wonders or iron. It's probably ok to get a few ships one shotted if they're in a swarm that can take a capital that has notre dame in 2-3 turns.
     
  3. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Coup a mercantile CS! Awesome idea!
     
  4. 59saintdane

    59saintdane Warlord

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    Have you been trying to capture enemy Frigates with your Privateers?
    Also, how about forgetting about the cities for now and playing defensive--after all, sounds like fighting a war on 7 fronts would be hard, even against the AI. Also that would reduce the diplo hit you get against your enemies, possibly making peace more likely and a re-DoW less likely--key wonder cities would be useful to take of course.
     
  5. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    You can't coup a city state that has DOWed you. The chances of a successful coup drop exponentially with increasing influence gap between you and the current ally.

    You're not in a terrible position, though - I sometimes deliberately DOW the world for a tactical challenge, and everything usually goes fine, especially on tiny islands. Just remember the principle of force concentration - attack each enemy city with roughly 15+4N units one at a time (assuming equal tech footing), where N is the number of defenders. This is especially easy to do on Tiny islands, once you have an ocean-going navy. Concentrate your fire on surrounding defenders before attacking the city itself, and do not bother to save wounded units - a wounded unit draws enemy fire just as well as a healthy one, and you need your healthy units to remain healthy in order to deal more damage. Be selective and try to take only capitals of civs which have lots of wonders (these capitals are usually wonder hubs) if happiness is low.

    From what I see and assume from your post, you have 3 serious problems, however. First and foremost, the "leading AI" has not been dragged into the war. As long as this is the case, you are losing the game. DOW that AI as soon as possible (as soon as you have the troops to deal with their attacks, that is) and make them pay. You don't want to be RAing or trading with that AI anyway. Even if you can't take its cities, tying up some of its production in unit building, by killing a few of its attacking units, gives you a better chance of winning than letting it tech up in leisure as the rest of the world burns. Secondly, expect to switch ideologies later in the game, since it is very likely that your ideology which will be established 2 turns later will not be the world ideology, and you will suffer a revolutionary wave as a result. Make sure to switch ideologies as soon as it is no longer practical to hold on to your original one, and to plan ahead for this eventuality. Thirdly, your unit composition is not well-suited for this situation - the rule of thumb for number of units required for attaking cities given above refers to an army or navy composed almost entirely of ranged units, with only a few speedy melee units to move in for the kill once the city has been reduced to 0 health. In your case, your galleasses are not ocean-going units, and therefore you will have a lot of trouble concentrating them on one city, even if it is possible to concentrate them at all. NEVER attempt to take a non-peninsular/island city with massed privateers, or even with massed ironclads or destroyers; the shoreline will restrict you to attack with only 2-3 units at a time, your units will be below half health after each attack, ground-based ranged units will be firing on those wounded units in addition to the city, you won't be able to reply to that fire at all, and the city will usually be recaptured a few times since you could not deal with the surrounding units first. Casualties will consequently be insane. My advice for your position would be to build new frigates in every city that can, and to delete any sufficiently inexperienced galleasses to free up the upkeep, if you can find it in your heart to do so. You may be able to upgrade the most experienced ones eventually if you free up enough gpt.

    Keep hitting the enemy harder than the enemy is hitting you, and you will be fine. Nuke indiscriminately if you are the first to nukes. Do not even try to negotiate peace if you are not willing to cede a city or two to each AI - the AIs will come to you for peace once you have given them a good thrashing, and will refuse to give you a dignified peace should you fail to do so. When they do give in, just remember to emphasize gpt reparations and luxuries over cities, unless you have an abnormally happy empire by then. It may also help to listen to "Rule Britannia" on an MP4 player as you play.
     
  6. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    The leading AI was the first to DoW me. The problem is he's on the other side of the map and he's the one taking down my CS allies. I managed to coup one CS with my star level 3 spy. Cool! Another buffer zone between me and them. Picking Order was a very wise idea. Picking Monuments offsets the unhappiness even if they get 3 levels of tourism on me.

    Plundering trade routes looks promising. I'm up to 400 gold in spite of having negative gpt. But still can't upgrade to frigates because of -3 iron. WC vote to embargo me in 9 turns, and I don't know if I will be able to trade with CS if I am embargoed, or if I lose my cargo ships. Never lost an embargo vote on myself before.
     
  7. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    How on earth did you coup a CS? I thought they were all at war with you?

    You still can receive resources from CS allies (and send trade routes to them) even if you are embargoed, if my memory of the last time I ran into that situation serves well. Losing Cargo ships seems like a greater concern if your gpt is already negative. This may be compounded by the fact that plundering trade routes may not be an option as the war drags on, as there will be fewer trade routes to plunder.

    -3 iron complicates things greatly. What did you previously spend your iron on? If frigates, how many do you have? If you have around 6-8, maybe consider risking it at assaulting a peninsular/island city, where your privateers and caravels will have more scope, although the combat strength hit you'll be taking from -3 iron can be significant. A single-tile enemy island city with oil, pearls and whales would be ideal, but I guess that is too much to hope for! :)

    As long as you rule the seas, nothing too bad can happen on an islands map. The worst case scenario I can imagine is that you do not have enough to take any cities, and the war consequently drags on in this manner until you get subs and battleships. The AI will also ban more and more of your luxuries as the game drags on if this happens. Order is pretty good at providing happiness (freedom is actually better in this regard in the late game, though I guess you'll need the military boost from order), but a revolutionary wave can easily cause 50+ unhappiness, so don't count on it.

    Did any of those late CS allies of yours which fell to the AI have any iron? If yes, can you liberate them? I understand that a naval assault across the map is very daunting, especially considering the difficulty in healing units, but the rewards are worth it - you may even be able to establish a naval presence there.
     
  8. Trackmaster

    Trackmaster Warlord

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    This is one of the reasons that I like to ethnically cleanse any Civilization early on that I defeat (especially if its before I've met many other Civs). I know that you take big warmonger hits, but it looks like you've already done enough to make people hate you anyway. Why keep an enemy around who is just going to make your life miserable for you?

    I've heard that a trick to getting people to be alright with your warmongering is to denounce them right before you attack, or it looks like they're going to attack you (provided that you have friends at the time). Then there's a good chance that they'll denounce that Civ as well, and at least you'll have some Civs who ignore the warmongering penalties for you ethnically cleansing them. Also, you should liberate any chance that you get, unless its a highly prized city or capital.
     
  9. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Coup on a CS is not the same as rigging their elections.

    Looks like plundering everybody's trade routes is doing the trick. :) When you're short on iron, frigates still move just as fast and plunder just as well. My gold is up to 1400, and at least two AI's have taken notice. The second-place AI offered 18gpt for peace, and another good AI offered me 3 horses for peace. Interestingly, because the war's been longer than 30 turns, that means all the denouncements ran out, too. I snuck in a couple DoW bribes before they got a chance to do it again.
     
  10. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    ??? Every time I plan a coup, it always says that my chance of success is 0% unless I'm <30 influence away from the ally! I've tried it too - and got my spy killed a few times in a row before I believed it was really 0%. Given that the CS was at war with you (-60 influence), how did you do that???

    BTW, rigging elections in a CS at war works - the effects are applied once you are at peace again.
     
  11. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Keep a spy at home, capture other spies. Level him up to 3. Those have a 50/50 even their influence is 130 higher than yours.
     
  12. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    :)Thanks! Seems like I just learned something new today!
     
  13. Convict

    Convict Warlord

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    I must admit that has never worked for me.
     
  14. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Heh heh. And I'm learning how to do navy battle while outteched. The second-place AI is 7 techs ahead, but I made peace with him. I'd hate to know what the leader has. Then again maybe I do know: just lost 6 ships in one go to GW bombers. Just sunk a battleship using 4 frigates, a caravel, and a privateer. Wish I had captured it, but that was not to be. I did capture a few of his ironclads with my privateers, but his bombers already sunk them all. I liberated one of the CS he captured, and now I've got his airbase surrounded by more frigates than I can count. Ah, so THAT'S how you take down planes with frigates. A barbarian horde scenario, and I am the barb.
     
  15. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    Er, I thought you were the tech leader?

    If someone has beaten you to bombers, you're in very deep water. Remember my earlier comment about everything being OK as long as you control the seas? Expect enemy submarines, which are the ultimate naval unit type, and can 1-shot everything you have. Can't help you with that, I'm afraid. Maybe you have enough naval power to pwn the leading AI before his tech lead can really kick in?

    If you were on an at least even tech footing, I would have recommended kiting his airbases with carriers. Never tried it myself, but it should be fun, especially since you would need to constantly guard against massed subs.
     
  16. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    Oh, now I think of it, teching up as fast as you can and setting up a timing attack that will hit the leading AI just as he finishes the first 3 Apollo Program modules (by which time you should have jet fighters and bombers) might be a better bet than hitting his cities with an obsolete navy without air cover. Battleships, subs and carriers vs missile cruisers, nuclear subs and cities sounds less daunting than frigates, privateers and caravels vs subs. Your call. In either case, good luck.
     
  17. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    I'm out of the woods. Still way behind in tech, though.

    I liberated the second CS he took; and what's even better is, I liberated the first CS he took a second time. That seems to have counted warmonger-wise in my favor twice. Now my former enemies are denouncing that guy. He had 5 planes in the second CS he captured; those are now bye-bye. I managed to privateer a battleship on my third try, and strangely, he didn't immediately sink my prize with planes (probably because battleships do pretty good damage on GW bombers). I am nowhere even close to researching battleships. Anyway, the leading AI sold out everything he had except a city for peace: 100+gpt, all his luxes, 33 iron(!!!), oil, coal.

    A number of lessons here I learned and hope to share with the forums. Only catch is, this is immortal, not deity. I do that so I can try out different strategies and make mistakes. I don't think I could have pulled myself out of this hole on deity.
     
  18. bcyy

    bcyy Warlord

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    Nice! Congrats!

    BTW, I'm bcyy, it's just that my account was one of those that got corrupted...
     
  19. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    Looks like plundering their trade routes was an excellent partial solution for a naval civ at war with everyone else!

    Hmm. Spies really come in handy in this situation.

    You say you are behind in tech as well. You could also use spies to steal tech, right? In fact you probably don't have to keep a spy in the capital anymore like you would if you were the tech leader. This time you should be stealing techs, not the other way around.

    In my Prince games I'm always the tech leader by the Renaissance, so I really have no use for my spies except keeping one in my capital to stop the veritable stampede of spies trying to steal from me. And even when he's fully promoted, techs still get stolen pretty often, unless I pick Double Agents. Makes me sometimes actually wish I wasn't the tech leader. Maybe I

    Going back to your game, maybe you should just make this a domination game? Those 60xp frigates you say you have could become pretty horrifying once they reach over 100 xp and upgrade into battleships. You'd need to get to the tech for battleships somehow (spies could help) and then find oil.

    Will probably need destroyers to fight off bombers, though. And if the AI actually builds subs...
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Sorry, I meant to ask about this earlier in the thread...

    How could you tell that the cause of the DoW is bribes? Or is that just your best guess?
     

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